Friday, July 29, 2005

WHY VLADY IS PART OF SONICS CORE?


Last week in the Seattle-pi, I wrote about the Sonics keeping their core together. In response their was a lot of discussion of why I included Radmanovic in the core. I think people are forgetting how valuable Vlady Radmanovic is for the Seattle Supersonics. What has been forgotten in Vlady is what makes the Sonics unique.
Vlady does things that no power forward in the NBA does. He runs like a deer. He is dramatically more athletic then anyone realizes. In fact, he may be the best athlete on the team. He stretches the floor with his three point shooting. His post defense is better then he is given credit for.
His floor presence opens up the game for Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis. I would argue that Allen and Lewis’s big years were directly related to their time on the floor with Vlady.
Interestingly enough the player that has to have Vlady around is Reggie Evans. If Evans is on the floor with another big most of his game is negated. His presence clogs the offense when there is another big on the floor and his rebounding dips because the other teams has three or four players around the boards. However, when he is on the floor with Vlady he has one on one rebounding match-ups because the floor is spread.
Numbers tell the dependency on Vlady for Evans. 82games.com charts the +/- rating for playing pairs. (How the team does when two players are on the floor together).
Evans is a negative with every big except when on the floor with Vlady they are the best playing pair on the roster (ignoring the limited time James and Fortson played together only 5 minutes).
Using more of the playing pairs data and Radmanovic’s importance to the Sonics is even clearer. Allen’s best playing pair is Radmanovic. Lewis’s best playing pair is Radmanovic. Ridnour’s best playing pair is Radmanovic. Collison’s best playing pair was Radmanovic. You get the point.
In 59 games when the Sonics had Lewis, Allen and Radmanovic on the floor together they outscored their opponent in 42 of those. That is the triumphant that makes the Sonics a unique team.
Vlady needs to improve on two areas of his game. He needs to be a better rebounder and he needs to get to the free throw line. The rebounding can improve, but I doubt it will ever be a strength. I would envision a Rashard Lewis type rebounder. The increase at the free throw line will come. It is inevitable as he understands the game, improves his ball handling and starts to get a better reputation with officials.
There is no doubt the Vlady is a part of the core of this team. Most importantly he is what makes the team unique.

94 comments:

Biggie said...
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merritt said...

Bravo. I've been harping on Vlade's importance on the board for a couple weeks, based on the 5-man rotations involving him from 82games.com. Is there any possibility of him starting at the 4, with collison starting at the 5, or do you think that would detract from the team dynamic? He ends up playing the 4 most often, anyway.

Anonymous said...

If Vladi is so vital to other core Sonics' effectiveness, why not get the deal done? What's the magic money number that will seal the deal?

Mick White said...

I agree with you and Mr. Black on this.. we need Vlady... the statement on Kemp is interesting.. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that article in the Times the other day. They could have a contest each game to see who would foul out first... Kemp or Fortson!

kel said...

We absolutely need Vlade. Someone commented about starting Vlade at the 4 and Collison at the 5; this won't work because going against the other team's big, Nick will get beat up and probably in early foul-trouble a lot of nights. Nick can rotate to the 5 when Vlade comes off the bench and he will probably be fine against the back-up centers and smaller line-ups.

That's why I think the priority at this point needs to be a legit center to give them 20 minutes a night, as Swift is not ready for that -- Vitaly would be OK, they are also looking at Dale Davis but there are questions about how quickly that geezer can get his wheelchair up and down the court. I don't know why they aren't taking a closer look at Steven Hunter.

I'm fine with Flip at the backup 2 and a few minutes at point, but we need a legit ball handler to back up Luke -- Imagine if Luke went down with an ankle sprain and Flip was your only point!

Diezel said...

If we bring back Vlade, Reggie, and along with Rashard where is please explain to me how we are going to have any low post scoring?? Rashard and Vlade never go inside to the post. And if u look at the teams the Sonics are going to have to beat to win the West.... San Antonio has TD, Nazi, Robert Horry. Houston has Yao, and now Stromile Swift, and T-Mac, Denver has Nene, K-Mart, Camby, and Elson. Phoenix has Amarie and Kurt Thomas, Shaun Marion. Dallas even has Dirk and Dampier. Golden States front line is even starting to evolve. So to me it's a no brainer to dump Vlade while he has value and get a PHYSICAL 4 with some offensive game. Stro would have been nice but once again the Soncis were sleeping. Why not offer Tyson Chandler a big enough deal that Chicago would be forced to do a sign and trade. The fact that Rashard and Vlade COMBINE for 10 rebounds a game should be scary enough. It's downright a joke that Vlade averages 4.6 rebounds a game in over 30 minutes of time and what about the durability issue??? I go back to my Soft Euro point. Do we know yet if Vlade has the heart?? to get it done in the big game. So in a nutshell he doesn't rebound, averages 1 assist a game doesn't go to the line. So all he does is camp out at the 3 point line. Locke... u were being KIND about his defensive ability as well, especially if u team he and Rashard together. Even u admitted that Juan and Flip would be redundent. The same can be said for Rashard and Vlade.

Locked on Sports said...

Come on Deizl Lewis became a pretty good low post scorer last year and when VR is on the floor he really plays the 4 with VR at the 3. In addition the LR,RA,RL,VR and NC line-up is the best 5 but that doesn't mean it should start. I think it should finish games and play time together, but exactly as kel said the early foul trouble on NC would be brutal. Here is what makes that line-up brillant. Most teams that are behind have to match-up to their opponent with that line-up even if the Sups are behind it is so deadly that teams still have to match or their lead will desipate.

Biggie said...
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hsshoops said...

I agree with everything Locke has to say about Rad-Man, but I don't see any way Valde stays here in the long run. Comming off the bench doesn't work for him and I think he would improve his game with more playing time. So how can he be part of your core, if it's only for one year? 4 of your 5 core starters are set, Ray, Luke, Rashard and Nick. Valde can play center and doesn't want to be the 6th man.

The question seems to me to be, is it worth it to pay Vlade for one year and lose his for nothing or is it a better course of action to find a sign and trade? Vlade is a great player, but I don't want someone who doesn't want to be here, in the role the Sonics have in mind.

If the Sonics go the sign and trade route, the Bucks have been mentioned, so why not try and get Desmond back. He can back up Rashard and Ray, eliminating the need to spend absurd amounts on Wilkens. (I like what I saw in the playoffs, but I need to see a lot more before I pay more than $1 Mill/yr). That also gives the Bucks more felxibility with Valde swinging between the 3 and the 4 while Simmons swings between the 3 and the 2.

If Kemp really looks ready and it doens't cost the Sonics anything, why not invite him to camp? However, you have to consider who he will take minutes away from. And he certainly doesn't solve your need for a starting center. Swifty, hopefully, is ready to be #2, but he ain't starting material yet. Then you have to apportion minutes to Collison, Fortson and, hopefully, a resigned Evans. If you are looking for someone to contribute, Kemp must be better than those guys because that is who he will be taking minutes from. The last time Kemp played, he wasn't better than any of them.

As for back up point guard, Conroy is not ready for prime time version of Brevin Knight. Can run a team, good D, no O. So why not get Knight?

If we are going to sign a Dawg, Tre Simmions is the better option. He brings something we don't currently have, 3-point shooting off the bench. But you have to be sure these guys are ready to play in the NBA, and most good college players are not.

I'm not wild about Flip comming back. He doesn't bring enough to the table to spend a lot of money on. Furthermore, he needs more playing time to be consistant. With Ray in the fold, Flip won't get it.

Now that I have gotten all my opinions about the Sonics off my chest, this is a cool blog site. Generally thoughtful opinions. Good to meet y'all.

hsshoops said...

Typo
The sentence should read: Valde can't play center and doesn't want to be the 6th man.

kel said...

Both Conroy and Simmons are in other camps, so it's not worth considering them for the moment. I would be happy with Knight backing up Luke.

Diezel, I would love a legit inside scorer at the 4 or 5, but we know they don't grow on trees. If you can find that deal, sign me up and I will drive Vlade to the airport -- but that's a long shot and until it happens, we need Vlade. If, as hsshoops suggests, the Sonics don't feel they can come to a long term agreement, than they definitely should explore sign-and-trade possibilities while his value is high, but I still question whether we will get a proven post player in return. And if you give up Vlade we are definitely going to need another scorer off the bench (Flip -- That's opportunity knocking!)

Anonymous said...

Radman needs to stay. It should be obvious based on the stats that have been thrown out here. He and Lew might be a bit redundant but it works and it works well!

I would love to see Evans back and if the price is right Poto. I'm not crazy about Flip and would rather see a sign and trade with him. Locke, what are the options out there for a Flip sign & trade?

Beyond that I feel we need a big who can be counted on for fouls and boards plus a backup PG/SG.

Does anyone know how Miles (the Kansas PG) is doing in Summer League? Or if Cleeves has brought his game up at all?

Diezel said...

KEl here goes... at first when I heard the Toine rumors to Seattle I was not that excited but the more u look/think of his game and the numbers(the biggest u can probably have him for the 5 mill exception)it makes sense the guy is not your classic back to the basket 4 but his versatility in the fact he can play 3/4 or at times can give u a blow at the 5 remember him guarding(loosely) Shaq. Vlade vs. Toine... Vlade averaged 11.8 pts/game shot 40.9 % a good 38 percent from 3's but had only 1.4 assists and 4.6 boards. Now Antoine, he averaged 19 and 9 last year was a 42% shooter a bit worse behind the arc only 32% and for some reason he's not the best FT shooter.. but the boards and the fact at either 3/4/5 he averages 4 assists a game and 1.39 steals and he is a very gifted passer who can almost play a point forward in cas Luke gets into foul trouble or just a pressure release. And he turns 29 in August. I know the attitude comes into play once in a while, but if u remember the year the beat NJ in that game where they were down over 20 going into the 4th and Toine was the one who was in Paul Pierce's face getting him hyped and then PP comes out in the 4th and goes off and they have the biggest 4th quarter comeback in NBA history. Can u see Vlade getting in Ray's face if he isn't brining it??? I can't. The kicker though is in the playoffs where u really make your name the guy averages 18 and 9. Can't argue with the numbers. Lastly Happy Bday Flip, I just hope the Sonics give u a bday present of a contract.

Diezel said...

sorry my last post i meant to say I hope they DONT give flip a contract for his bday

Anonymous said...

You've come a long way from claiming that Vlady's continued presence here was soley a result of the Sonics being awed by a pre-draft workout.

kel said...

Diezel -- excellent breakdown on Toine. I haven't been thrilled hearing his name either, but your're starting to sell me on it. I think the cool thing about him is that with his versatility he spreads the floor like Vlade does, so if your replace Vlade with Toine, you don't loose that element of your team. His assist numbers make him even more appealing. The attitude has always been my biggest concern, but maybe you are right that it is overrated and as long as he is competitive he is fine.

If you can have him for the 5 million exception, then you could sign-and-trade Vlade to get some real talent to fill out the rest of the roster instead of the remaing picked-over FAs and then resign Vitaly and Flip if necessary.

Not that I'm necesarrily ready to bail on Vlade, but I must admit this is an exciting scenario.

Biggie said...
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Anonymous said...

Wow, damn near every Sonic is best with Vlady on the floor! That is impressive.
Now for a question about the Sonics "core". Most teams have a core of 2 or 3 players. Is the Sonics core really 4 or 5 deep (Allen, Lewis, Vlady, Luke and maybe Collison in the future). Is this possible or does it just feel like this b/c we are too close to be objective?
Tradguy2

Anonymous said...

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned trading Rashard and starting Vlade at the 3.

Would Chicago bite on a Rashard for Chandler swap?

1 Luke
2 Ray
3 Vlad
4 Nick
5 Tyson C.

Biggie said...
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Diezel said...

On Chad Fords insider page he has Vlade ranked the 6th highest FA left available, his comments that Vlades agents demands of 8-9 millon dollars a year and that he starts is not only turning off other teams but it might be too much cash for the sonics to pony up. He has Reggie at 13 I did not know that Reggie led the league in rebounds per minute in the NBA last year, he says that the reason not to many offers are going to him though is teams feel the Sonics will match any offer for him, hence the sign and trading of either of the two. He actually had Flip at 15 but seemed higer on him than on Vlade.

Biggie said...
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Anonymous said...

If we can sign Vlade to a relatively smaller sized deal then I think we'll be fine, but it's hard for me to see paying a back up (one that will get good minutes no doubt) a ton of money.

Another problem is when we run into a big team how much will Vlade play the 4. There's a few matchup problems that I could see developing. The main thing is bringing in a big center who can guard a TD, KG, etc. Then Vlade can get more minutes.

I'd love to get him back, don't get me wrong. In the right situation it would be great and I hope the Sonics get it done. Remember AD is gone too. If you keep Reggie and Radman and you got collison it leaves you in a hard position. With so much up in the air it's hard to say what to do right now.

So if you keep Reggie then Vlade might have to go, as much as that might hurt.

Philthy said...

I agree completely, and I know that I might be beating a dead horse by saying it, but I feel compelled to repeat it as often as possible. A year ago, I wasn't a fan of Vlady at all. He didn't hustle, didn't play a lick of defense, didn't seem to care at all, and merely whined about minutes. Nate lit a fire under him and it's completely changed the kind of player he is, in my opinion. I actually think the Sonics should consider keeping Radmanovic over Lewis if the situation called for them to make a choice (thank God it hasn't). The thing that's impressed me the most about Radmanovic this year as opposed to last, aside from his improved intensity and hustle, has been his defense. Last year, he played defense like a toothpick, never bending his knees or moving. This year, I watched him hold his own against quicker point guards when there was a switch, as well as battle stronger guys fearlessly on the low block.

We lost guys we can afford to lose. I think losing AD hurts, because he was that Bobby Jackson-type energy off the bench. I haven't been disappointed with anything the Sonics have done this offseason, even though they're getting some flack for it. I would, however, be disappointed if they didn't make all efforts to keep Vlady.

Moreover, i still this the Sonics need to trade Flip. He's athletic, but not very skilled, and simply doesn't know how to play the game at the NBA level.

dave said...

Locke,

I appreciate your stat breakdowns and analysis of the Sonics. It has taught me a tremendous amount about the sport. Question for you: What are the odds that Flip will be involved in a sign and trade? I think that the Sonics need more of a one guard to back up Luke and could use Damien as a more versatile backup than Flip. Flip seems to slow down the ball movement and doesn't have the height to match up defensively against the better two guards.

Anonymous said...

I think your opinoin on Radmonovich is correct.. But I think the sonics need a big man, what about Antione Walker in a sign & trade? Could it work?

Philthy said...

Regarding "black's" comment about Vlady not being able to start and Rashard being a definite starter, I think Lewis is overrated. He's a nice player, but most of his numbers come off others' ability to create to give him open looks. He disappears in games, and doesn't play defense. I like Lewis, but I think Vlady's more valuable, and I wouldn't have said that a year ago.

Charles Barkley called Radmanovic one of the most underrated players in the league. In response to another's comment about Chad Ford's ranking of free agents...no offense to Mr. Ford, but I've never put much stock in what he says. He's also the guy who thought a few years ago that the Warriors would be able to get Gary Payton for Speedy Claxton and a second round pick, or something ridiculous like that. We got Ray Allen and a package for Payton and a package. Ford's got some resources, but I'm usually not impressed with his NBA intuition. That's one man's opinion. Contrarily, I've always been a huge fan of Locke. I have a ton of respect for anyone who digs as much as he does and looks at things as objectively as he does. I think in a market that's hurting for decent sports analysts (say what you will, but that's what I think), it's nice to have someone as impressive as Locke and his team.

Ha! That was a plug and a half!

Philthy said...

In response to getting Antoine Walker,...

WHY!?!?!?

Walker is terrible. Plus, he's not a big man.

Potapenko should do fine, I think. He's underrated, and with Collison playing some at center, and on occasion Mr. Forston, we should be fine. Especially if one of the youngsters can step it up a bit. Otherwise, I'm not sure you have enough roster spots once you fill the perimeter.

dave said...

Who is a likely starting five if the Sonics do sign Vlade? Do you bring Vlade or Collison off the bench? To appease Vlade, it might make sense to start both Lewis and Radmonovic, and risk throwing in Swift at the five. It might be too early for him, though. I'd like that lineup with the idea that Collison is the first guy off the bench. Even so, who will come in to spel Luke? Flip can't do it effectively.

Biggie said...
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AK1984 said...

The only justifiable way in which the Sonics should bring back Vladimir Radmanovic is if he agrees to the one-year tender for $3,166,155. There is no legitimate reason behind giving Radmanovic, whose game duplicitous to Rashard Lewis, a long-term deal.

Now, regarding more possibilites with trading Radmanovic, the thought of moving him to the New Orleans Hornets seems like the best idea. Again, as I've mentioned before, the Hornets have looked to move Jamaal Magloire (11.7 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 1 bpg, & +12.96 eff.), who would be an amazing player as the Sonics in the middle for 32 minutes or so a night; Magloire could probably be obtained in a sign-&-trade for Radmanovic and the team's 2006 first-round draft pick (lottery protected).

Another team that may be interested in Radmanovic might be the Cleveland Cavaliers. Presently, the Cavs are looking to make small forward LeBron James happy by getting rid of power forward Drew Gooden, 24. Last season, Gooden was amazing (14.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .93 bpg, +18.89 eff.); yet, his attitude caused problems with both the coaching staff and fellow teamates. As of right now, it appears as if the Cavaliers are using Gooden as traid bait in an attempt to acquire Clipper point guard Marko Jaric; however, if Jaric either re-signs with Los Angeles or chooses to go elsewhere, then that makes Gooden readily available.

Therefore, the Sonics could re-up Radmanovic to a long-term deal that he and his agent are looking for -- which would be worth approximately $48 million over 6 years -- and subsequently sign-&-trade him and the club's 2006 first-round draft pick (lottery protected) to Cleveland, where he would become their starting power forward, for Gooden ($4,065,811), along with salary-cap compling spare parts in small forward Luke Jackson ($1,955,160) and shooting guard Aleksander Pavlovic ($1,274,160); this move would not only solve the Sonics frontcourt problems, but also their reserve swingman issues.

dave said...

Black,

There are two Walkers that you're talking about. Antoine is terrible at the team concept. Wally is highly underrated. The only terrible signings that Wally Walker has made were Calvin Booth, Vin Baker and Jim McIlvane. According to the Seattle Times article about Kemp, the McIlvane signing was advocated heavily by Shawn Kemp. Also, that was 9 or 10 years ago and its time to get over it. The Booth signing was advocated by McMillan, according to Locke's show. Finally the Baker signing was poor, but Boston made the same mistake after he stunk, and everybody seems to be calling Danny Ainge a genius.

What Walker has done is probably the best job of drafting with the 12-14th pick of anyone in the league. Witness Vlade, Luke, Nick and hopefully Swift. In addition, the pickup of Antonio Daniels was probably the best steal in the league over the past three years. I think it's time that we forget the mistakes of 10 years ago and realize that the managament staff of the Sonics is doing more with less than almost anyone else in the league.

Philthy said...

I'm not calling Walker terrible by his numbers, I'm calling him terrible because of his shot selection, his poor defense, his selfishness (he has the same type of "selfishness" as Chris Webber...and don't tell me he's not selfish because he gets assists. Kobe gets assists, too). The point is, Walker needs too many touches to be effective, and in doing so, he takes away from most teams' chemistry. The fact is, Walker has questionable judgment on the court. His strengths? He has deceptive quickness and low post athleticism. He's a decent passer in the post, but since he's rarely in the post that's sort of irrelevant. Walker's perhaps one of the most overrated players in the league.

Biggie said...
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Diezel said...

No offense.. if u go with a starting line up of Vlade, Rashard, and Robert u have a combined like 10 boards a game if u go from last years stats. And when u matchup against SA whos guarding Tim??? Rashard or Vlade right. and KG?? Swift this year is going to get no love from the referees look at nick in the playoffs this year. U have to start Nick next year no matter what Vlade may want. Are none of u taking into consideration Vlades durability issues??? the guy is Soft as Charmin. And if he's so great like all u are saying, then why have no teams offered him a contract?? and are u willing to pay a guy 9 millon to come off your bench???? not me. And to philty you take Charles Barkleys word over chad fords???? and I seen when Charles compared Vlade to Dirk great another soft euro who disapears in the playoffs and plays no D. And u may not like Toine' but you don't know hoops if u say the guy is horrible really since when has 19 and 9 been horrible and he's not a big either is Vlade or Rashard.. The guy averages 18 and 9 in 37 career playoff games, will be cheaper than Vlade and can play all 3 frontcourt positions as he played center for Dallas. Vlade averages 1 assist a game what is your arguement for that??? and his durablilty issues what is your answer to that. And which one of Rahsard or Vlade is going to guard the teams we play in the west's 4.

Diezel said...

No offense.. if u go with a starting line up of Vlade, Rashard, and Robert u have a combined like 10 boards a game if u go from last years stats. And when u matchup against SA whos guarding Tim??? Rashard or Vlade right. and KG?? Swift this year is going to get no love from the referees look at nick in the playoffs this year. U have to start Nick next year no matter what Vlade may want. Are none of u taking into consideration Vlades durability issues??? the guy is Soft as Charmin. And if he's so great like all u are saying, then why have no teams offered him a contract?? and are u willing to pay a guy 9 millon to come off your bench???? not me. And to philty you take Charles Barkleys word over chad fords???? and I seen when Charles compared Vlade to Dirk great another soft euro who disapears in the playoffs and plays no D. And u may not like Toine' but you don't know hoops if u say the guy is horrible really since when has 19 and 9 been horrible and he's not a big either is Vlade or Rashard.. The guy averages 18 and 9 in 37 career playoff games, will be cheaper than Vlade and can play all 3 frontcourt positions as he played center for Dallas. Vlade averages 1 assist a game what is your arguement for that??? and his durablilty issues what is your answer to that. And which one of Rahsard or Vlade is going to guard the teams we play in the west's 4.

Biggie said...
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AK1984 said...

The following are some reasons which prove that Antoine Walker sucks: 42.2% fg, 32.3%, 3-p 53.9% ft, 22.37 fg at. per 48 min., & 3.29 tpg; he's also an extremely soft player on both offense and defense.

In other news, why are you all talking about Shawn Kemp, Tre Simmons, and Will Conroy? None of them are ever going to do -- from this point forward, in the case of Kemp -- anything worthwhile. Besides, Walker and Kemp hate one another, Simmons is going to training camp with the Atlanta Hawks in attempt to earn a roster spot that he probably won't get, and Conroy is just going through the motions for the Los Angeles Lakers summer league team until he realizes that he'll be stuck playing in either the ABA, CBA, NBDL, or USBL for the next few years.

Philthy said...

diezel...

I never even compared Barkley's comments to Ford's. You're taking that out of context. I don't often agree with Barkley, but my point was he was on the money with his comment about Radmanovic.

Regarding 'toine...if the Sonics pick him up, we'll have a case like in Sacramento when the Kings did better without Webber than with him. I don't see the Sonics making much effort to get him anyway, so I'm not sure the debate is relevant.

Anonymous said...

Why isn't RA bringing in the FAs?

I'd rather have Vlade than Lewis, too. You just know that Lewis is going to opt out of his contract next year and demand Ray type money. He's not worth it. The Sonics could fill their long term SF needs for good by signing Vlade now.
Also the Sonics aren't going to sign Walker or Magliore. If Walker is playing for 5 mil, then he's going to a contender like the Heat. And Magliore is going to play in Toronto, which is why Toronto drafted Charlie Villanueva. I still think the best center prospect realistically available is Zaza Pachulia.

Philthy said...

Very good point about Walker going to a contender. The Heat have been pursuing, though I'm not sure I see that being a good fit either. GM's gotta be careful about doing what Portland did to get themselves in trouble, and what Isiah has done in New York...that is, picking up every available athletic player without regard to need or chemistry, just because they're athletic. However, Walker would fit better in Miami than in Seattle, IMHO.

I really don't know what's happening with Magloire. The Raptors have been trying to get him for years.

Diezel said...

How can u say the Kings did better without Webber than with him they went to a seventh game of the western conference finals with him and if it wasn't for Horry they(lakers) would have been done. And without him they go out in the first round of the playoffs. And I hope u know Toines shooting percentage was better than Vlade's played in more games,averaged 4 more assists and 4 1/2 more rebounds a game. If Vlade is so versatile as all u say please explain his 1 assist and 4 rebounds a game??? at least Toine can give u a alternate ball handler that can set up others. But i do agree it might be all mute as he might be heading to South Beach to play with the DADDY!!

Anonymous said...

Collison is a good role player.. Lots of energy.. Somewhat undersized..

Ridenour: See above. The guy's so small, he's a liability defensively late in games, plus he gets so beat up his offense suffers as the game goes on..


Get a darned stud PF in there! Dalambert, Chandler, S Swift all would have made sense. What about C Taft in the draft? He wasn't worth a 2nd round pick?


Gas is right.. The M's.. The Sonics.. Both these teams were built around superstars when they won..

As far as Allen goes, it's it ol basketball lore that you don't give huge contracts to guards? Why need inside scoring!

Philthy said...

Well, Locke understands what I mean about Webber. He's been preaching the same thing, if you ever listen to him.

The Kings are known for doing better without Webber than with him. Divac was the anchor to that offense, not CWebb. So they made it to the semifinals? They've also choked with him. I'm not saying he didn't help them, but he hurt that team more often than people realize.

I'm not sure who's entry you're reading, but I never said Vlady was versatile per se. I said he's improved his defense a lot, as well as his hustle and assertiveness. He's a whole lot smarter than 'toine, too.

And you can't throw 'toine's assists numbers and expect it to have much merit. Kobe averages a lot of assists, as did Jerry Stackhouse when he led the league in scoring. Those types of players who demand a lot of touches, or hog the ball by taking poorly chosen shots, are bound to get a boost in numbers. Walker gets himself in trouble and gets assist by kicking it out if he has to. That doesn't make him a great ball contributor. He is a good passer out of the post, but letting him float on the perimeter like he likes to do is a big mistake and teams have paid for it. It works OK for Boston, because that team plays sporadically anyway, but you don't see them going anywhere soon do you?

Philthy said...

I do agree that the Sonics need a solid back to the basket player to draw double teams when the pick and roll isn't working. Lewis did a nice job being that player at times this past year, and I don't see why he can't do it again. Still, I think another getting another one would be wise. Might be tough to do with the weak free agent market this summer. Players seem to be going for higher prices.

Anonymous said...

Hey Diezel do you think that maybe Radmanovich's stats were down last year could be because he had a broken leg?

Philthy said...

I think Rad's stats were down last year because he sacrificed some of the more noticeable numbers to fit in with a very deep team. I think last season, in spite of some number dips, was his best season yet (minus the injury).

Oh, and one more thing to note about 'toine (I know we're beating that issue into the ground). Look what he did on Dallas...a team that actually plays team ball (at least on offense). After starting the season red hot, and he can get hot at times, he ended up in the dog house, because he couldn't play with anyone. Does that sound like someone who's versatile?

Diezel said...

are u crazy.. what year did Stack lead the nba in scoring???? I agree we need a more traditional 4 man but where is he coming from?? and to dave as much credit u give for wallys drafting look at one one of my earlier posts when I name all the guys Wally passed on to get Vlade, Luke, Nick and Swift.

Anonymous said...

Why can't Lewis play the 4? Isn't that where all the Garnett clones end up?

Diezel said...

sorry I forgot about that god awful year in 00-01 when stack was in Detroit, my bad.

Philthy said...

um, diezel.

You haven't been a fan of the NBA for very long, have you? :P I'm not gonna do your homework for you every time. ;) Now I have a better understanding of your Chris Webber comments.

Stackhouse led the league in scoring in 2000-2001 when he played for the Detroit Pistons and averaged just under 30.0 ppg. He also averaged about 5 assists per game, which is a lot considering he's not considered to be a ball distributor.

And who did the Sonics pass on to get Nick and Luke? i thought those were absolutely brilliant picks! I think you look at numbers way too much. These guys do what it takes to win.

Nick is probably one of the top two or three smartest players on this team as a rookie, and the best low post defender we have. I watched him shut down Garnett in a close fourth quarter game, shut down Gasol in the fourth early in the season, when the Sonics came back from a 21-point deficit, and take charge after charge after charge. You rarely see Nick commit a foul that isn't necessary. Also, someone said he was undersized. Maybe at center, but 6-9 or 10 and 250 lbs isn't so small for a power forward.

Luke is a gym rat and improving at an amazing rate. He's already ahead of where Steve Nash and John Stockton were at this point in their careers. Remember that the point is the toughest position in basketball to play and develop in. Also, why are people still going off about his poor defense? He may not be a big point guard, but Luke applies effective on the ball full court pressure for the entire game! He's greatly improved his defense, comes up with clutch steals all the time, and has gotten stronger and smarter. He'll only get better, and might even be a couple years from becoming a brimming all star. He's that kind of talent. He needs to continue to improve his shooting and become a bit more consistent.

Remember, everyone had wanted the Sonics to select Reece Gaines instead of Ridnour. :P

Philthy said...

:) Sorry, diezel. I posted before I read your reply.

Diezel said...

phlthy.... I agree with u on the 03 draft and yes I remember the Reece Gaines rumors. But if u look at 01' when they drafted Vlade from a "Super" workout they passed on Richard Jefferson, Troy Murphy, Steven Hunter, Zach Randolph, Sam Dalembert, Jammal Tinsley, and Tony Parker. Then last year they passed on Sebastian Telfair, Kris Humphries, Josh/JR Smith, Tony Allen, David Harrison, Chris Duhon, and Trevor Ariza. As far as Luke and Nick I agree totally with u on Nick I am not totally sold on Luke yet though, especially after how he strugled against Tony Parker. The only person though I would have drafted over Luke is Josh Howard or we could have packaged our picks and got a Bosh, Mello, D Wade. That 03' draft though has the possibities of being compared to the 84 draft it was that good at the top half. The Crown Jewel obviously being Bron Bron.

Philthy said...

Great points, I totally agree. I wasn't really trying to defend Wally there, he's made some boneheaded moves (remember the Jim McIlvaine sign? Jerome James sign?).

I think Vlady has worked out fine, but it is tough to argue that they may not have wanted to take a Randolph or Jefferson there. Oh well. At least they didn't trade Jefferson for Eddie Griffin like the Rockets did.

Ridnour certainly has to get more consistent. Don't forget that, though he was outplayed by Parker, he totally outplayed Bibby, which was a huge reason the Sonics were so successful in that series. James' play was great, but when you can take Bibby out of his game and give him difficulties at the other end too, you really hurt the Kings. Bibby's the juggernaut that gets them going when Miller's hurt like he was.

Anonymous said...

a good post locke.

i would add though that radmanovic gets beat by his counterpart according to 82games.com pretty soundly on points and PER rating, regardless of which position he plays. and that somewhat offsets what he does to improve his teammates offense.

i advocate looking at team +/- rating minus individual counterpart
ratings. if you do that vlade still looks good but maybe not as special.

Anonymous said...

i have sometimes advocated playing vlade at center. he did that 15-20% of his time in 2002-3 and 2003-2004 but only about 2% of the time last year. the data sounds him get used on defense so it probably isnt a good thing for big minutes but that is a way you can play ridnour, allen, lewis, evans and radmanovic which optimizes the offense and optimizes evans on the boards too. they sonic seemed to go to this lineup mainly when they were behind at end of games but they could do it more if they dont end up with enough at center next year.

Philthy said...

That's a good point and is definitly relevant. I think Locke's point about VR, however, delves more into the matchup problems he creates for other teams, which makes the Sonics as a team more effective. They play a lot of team defense, even though they trapped less last season than in previous seasons.

But that is a very interesting stat.

Biggie said...
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Anonymous said...

fehse signed a three contract in May to stay in germany. he is playing better but still nothing that significant.

Diezel said...

I am in no way saying Vlade is a bad player or anything and even though I came up with names it's pretty much splitting hairs.. The main thing I worry about though is the Defensive rebounding, and the fact if Vlade comes back with a one year contract and not starting where is his head going to be at. Is he going to pout and not produce or is he going to be focused and be playing like a unrestricted FA like the way Ray handled his situation. I also wonder how the drafting of Petro effected Roberts psychi??? I mean your a lottery pick then u get no run and the organization goes out and spends a 1rst rounder on a center your same age. Does anyone think this may effect his confidence especially if he starts the year struggling.

Philthy said...

That gave me a good laugh, black. Thanks.

Peter Fehse was a late second round pick. That's where you take gambles. Very few pan out. You can hardly blame Wally for that.

Anonymous said...

three year contract

Philthy said...

diezel...

As far as defensive rebounding, why would keeping VR change that, assuming we keep Evans, and still have Forston and Collison? I'm not sure what your point is.

Robert's confidence? If his confidence is swayed that easily, then we're in trouble. If anything, I'd say it would motivate him because he'll have some competition.

If drafting Petro becomes the reason Swift doesn't pan out, then I'd suspect he wouldn't have panned out no matter what.

Anonymous said...

i think he averaged like 5 pts 4 rebs in 15 minutes but his team last year won a championship though a lower level one

Biggie said...
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Anonymous said...

diezel,
I think the Sonics drafting Petro will affect Swift's psyche, how can it not. The burning question is in what way will this affect it. Will it motivate him and push him to be better or plant seeds of doubt in his abilities? That's tough for anybody to get a read on when your analyzing a 19 year old.

Biggie said...
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Anonymous said...

Well, Swift is part japanese so would that qualify for black's diveristy quota?

Biggie said...
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Biggie said...
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Anonymous said...

how about the TheFreakinHugeBoner?

Anonymous said...

Nice posts Philthy. It's my understanding that Evans is unlikely to stay. Personally, I wouldn't be too upset. I like Ray a lot less when he whines about Bruce Bowen being a dirty player while having Reggie Evans as a teammate. Does Bruce pinch?

Biggie said...
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Biggie said...
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Biggie said...
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Philthy said...

thanks, anon.

Yeah, I also heard that about Evans.

The funny thing is, Allen's right about Bowen. He's a cheapshot artest and as good a defender as he is, he's not nearly the defender Ron Artest is. That being said, I wish Allen would have stopped whining about it. He made his point and after that it just made him look bad and gave Bowem more of a mental edge. In the playoff series against the Spurs, Allen finally stopped complaining about it and just went about his business. Bowen continued to hold, pull, throw elbows, etc...but Allen didn't let it get to him (finally) and completely embarrassed Bowen (I went to all the home games of that series and loved watching it). It is too bad the Sonics lost, but I think Allen grew up a lot as a player from these playoffs.

Diezel said...

That was my point sorry I should have clarified bringing Vlade back with Rashard and no Reggie will effect it. Black good call on Lawerce Roberts with the 55th pick why not at least bring him to camp.... and I know it's the summer but he(Roberts) averaged like 17.5 pts and 11 boards OUCH!!! and Black maybe if u lucked out you could have seen his Aunt Robin at the Key. I also agree that Robert could be motivated by the move and I am in agreement it is so hard to access the mental fortitude of a 19 year old. I guess we will see this fall. I can tell u as hot as Sonic talk is now, if the Hawks start out bad and the way the Huskies look it could be nothing but Sonic talk until late October. I can tell u now Wally is praying that the Sonics start off hot. If they throw up a stinker like last years opening night against the Clips, and follow that up with a couple losses in a row, all those bandwagoneres are gonna jump real quick and all those seats that were full in June are going to be empty in no time. I heard a rumor Steve Ballmer was interested in buying the Sonics anyone else here this or some internet rumor.

Anonymous said...

here is the citation: "Fehse re-signed with Braunschweig - May 20, 2005 - by Moritz Korff


Peter Fehse (210-C/F-83) signed a new contract with BS|Energy Braunschweig (1. Bundesliga). The youngster decided to stay in Braunschweig the next three seasons. In 04-05 Fehse played 6 games for BS|Energy and averaged 4.7 ppg. For cooperation-team SG FT/MTV Braunschweig he had 11.9 ppg and 7.1 rpg in 14 games of the 2. Bundesliga North and helped the team to its best result (6th) ever."


http://www.eurobasket.com/ger/ger.asp?NewsNo=12

Jack W said...

Rebraca,a backup center and the LAC version of Jerome James,is signing for 4 mil/yr for 3 yrs.
Does Potapenko get this same deal?

If the Sonics are trying to contend for the champioship I don't think they should sign Potapenko. There are glaring holes on defense that should be addressed in order to contend.

This teams offense is not good enough to overcome its deficiency on defense. Over the last three years, the opposing teams field goal percentage has increased (44.7/ 45/ 45.9 %). Which would be fine, except the Sonics field goal percentage is less than the opposing teams FG % (43.7/ 44.6/ 44.4 %).

The Sonics make up for it because they make more free throws(+ 1/gm), make a higher amount of three point shots(+ 2.5/gm), and rebound more(+ 3/gm). While they have all those advantages it's not what matters most. Nearly all chamionship contenders have something in common. They have a higher FG % and they make more free throws than their opponents.

Looking at the 95-96 Sonics, they outscored their opponents by eight points/gm (104.5 - 96.7). What's interesting is that the opponent had more field goal attempts on average. In addition, the opponent had nearly as many free throw attempts and made three pointers. The biggest difference was the Sonics had an advantage of 4.2 % (48 - 43.8) from the field. Plus, the Sonics made two more free throws/gm than the opponent.

A big reason the Sonics won more games last year was due to the addition of Fortson, Collison, and the excellent year Evans played. The rebounding and point production increased at the center/power forward spots.

In 03/04 with Booth, James, Potapenko, and Evans playing 71 out of 96 minutes/gm they produced:
- .28 pt/m
- .24 rb/m
- .041 bl/m
- FTM: 4/gm

In 04/05 with Fortson, Collison, James, and Evans playing 75 out of 96 minutes/gm they produced:
- .31 pt/m
- .3 rb/m
- .031 bl/m
- FTM: 7/gm

Radmanovic in 03/04:
- .4 pt/m
- .176 rb/m
- .018 bl/m
- FTM: 1/gm

04/05:
- .4 pt/m
- .156 rb/m
- .017 bl/m
- FTM: 1/gm

To give comparison to an elite tandem of Wallace and Wallace(DET) playing 70 out of 96 minutes/gm they produced:
- .35 pt/m
- .29 rb/m
- .054 bl/m
- FTM: 3.5

With an improved defense the Sonics can get easier baskets on fast break opportunities. Another addition, the Sonics need is a true low post threat. Last year Lewis did improve his accuracy in the post, but he actually became more of an outside shooter than previous years. He improved his 3 pt% from 37.6 to 40. Also, he improved his 2 pt% from 46.3 to 49.9. In the seasons 02/03, 03/04, 04/05, Lewis shot 932, 843, and only 719 shots in 2 pt territory. Lewis isn't the low post threat the Sonics need.

Can Collison be that player? He would need to convert 5-6 out of 10 shots/gm, 4-5 foul shots/gm, and 8-10 rebounds/gm even to be considered. Can he do that? If he can do that, then Lewis and Allen should get some easier shots.

Lets say the Sonics could and would sign and trade: Evans, Wilkins, Flip, and Radmanovic. Could the Sonics get back players to make them better than last year?
What would those trades look like?

I read one idea that would work: A.Harrington for Radmanovic.

Here are some ideas(based from many of your ideas) that may work.

G.Wallace and B. Knight for Radmanovic and Flip.

Evans, Wilkins, and or a draft pick for:
D.Gadzuric(MIL) or
C.Kaman(LAC) or
J.Magloire(NOR)

The idea here is to get the first and second player(Wallace and Knight) off the bench to increase the defensive intensity and bring stability to the offense. In addition, sign a shooter in free agency like John Barry or Alan Houston.

1- Rid
2- Allen
3- Lewis
4- Collison
5- Gadzuric/Kaman/Magloire
-----
6- Wallace
7- Knight
8- Fortson
9- X(shooter)
10- Swift
11- Cleaves...

Still have rebounding and shooters, the defense has improved, and more inside scoring opportunities will be available.

Charlotte gets a 3 pt shooting SF and a backup guard.

The trade involving a center may need a third team involved. Otherwise, each team could use Evans. Wilkins may be wanted in LA and NO.

It's difficult to actually find a center that would be available and worth it. LAC and Milwaukee have extra, I would imagine they deal at some point. Also, it would be nice to get something in return for Evans, Radmanovic, Wilkins, and Flip.

If the Sonics keep pretty much the same team they'll be competing with the Jazz and Golden St. for the last two playoff spots. As of right now the Spurs, Suns, Rockets, Nuggets, Mavericks, and maybe the Kings and Warriors are better than the Sonics.

Have a good weekend!

Philthy said...

First, you forgot to mention one of the biggest reasons the Sonics won last season. They forced turnovers. You're right, though. They need to force turnovers, because they shoot worse than their opponents and need more shots, but you have to remember that that's also because they're the best 3-point shooting team in the league. They're a unique team, so though I think your numbers assessment is valid and makes some good points, I don't think it shows the complete picture.

Regarding those proposed trades:

VR and Flip for Wallace and Knight? Why would Seattle do that? Knight had a nice year, but he's old and undersized. I don't think it would cost a VR to get him. Gerald Wallace is also a promising player, and the two averaged similar points, but VR did it on a deep team that won 50 games and Wallace did it on one of the crappiest teams in the league. I do like the prospects of getting rid of Flip. :P Not a fan of his. But seriously, that deal doesn't make sense. You take away your biggest strength in VR's ability to cause big time match up problems for opponents.

As for the deals for those centers. That's all fine, except which of those teams is going to pull that deal? Players of Wilkins caliber are a dime a dozen, and Evans is undersized. Milwaukee just re-signed Gadzuric as insurance for Bogut, which tells me they intend to keep him. It would make sense that New Orleans might be looking to move Magloire, but you honestly don't think they couldn't get a better offer than that? I'm sure the Raptors, who've been drooling over Magloire, could cough something better. Teams are not so quick to give up such promising centers.

None of those deals are realistic.

Anonymous said...

While there is no doubt that VR belongs to a "core", his efficiency on the court depends greatly on passing/penetration skills of a pg playing with him as well as overall ball movement of whole unit. This will emphasize importance of quality pg backup for Luke. I don't think that's Flip's game.
I think to start VR@4 and NC@5 may work against some teams,hoping that RL's progress at post up game, we saw last season will continue.
Good weekend

Anonymous said...

Speaking of hypothetical trades, how is the feeling on Kevin Ollie's game? Could he fit in as AD's replacement? I understand that he hasn't provided value in line with his current contract but what's the chance of him getting back to the 02-03 level he showed here. I think the contract he signed in 2003 is a five year deal for $15.8 million with a team option for 2006-2007 season. So should the Sonics trade for him, he could be a nice short term fix for two seasons before the team option in his contract kicks in. Thoughts?

Ableman2 said...

Is anyone else concerned that a backcourt of Allen and Ridnour is more than a little soft defensively? I love the guys offensively, but what % of the pg do you think have the ability to break down Rid off the dribble? Plus, it's not like we have another defensive stopper/lockdown defender type who could rotate over on Rids guy...

infinite said...

i doubt the sonics are about to trade away lewis. it'd tarnish the front office more if they don't stay loyal to their players now. i remember a couple years back they were hyping up that our core was desmase, lewis and radmanovic. and then they went off and traded desmase (man if only he had a consistant jumper) away. i guess it worked out well since we got luke, ray and flip. i just thunk that if the sonics were to once again trade off another piece of the core it'd be lewis. because he could land us a Tyson Chandler. that would be a good fit on our team. Chandler i hear plays with a lot of effort/heart, the only knock is his durability. whoever posted this first is on to something.

we can then plug in Radmanovic at 3 and collison at the 4 and chandler at the 5 and we're set. if our two 19 year old 7 footers can develop in 2-3 years, our rotation at tyhe 4-5 would be ridiclously insanely good. our front line would be stellar and a championship wouldn't be too farfetched.

once i do agree with black, give shawn kemp a chance. atleast invite him to training camp and see what he has left and if he does sign him to a contract with all the writings that would hold him from messing up his life again. just a thought

Jack W said...

Philthy-

I didn't list all the reasons why the Sonics did well last year because it would take up too much time. But, I wanted to share a few things that I noticed.

According to my numbers:

Seattle: FGM(35.1) ~70.2 + 8.1 (3pt made)+ 20.5 (FTM) = ~98.8


opponent:FGM(35.8) ~71.6 + 5.7 (3pt made)+ 19.4 (FTM) = ~96.7

Seattle was (+ 3.1) in 3 pt shots made vs. the opponent in 03-04. In 04-05 they fell to (+ 2.4) 3pt made.

In 03/04, Seattle made 2.5 free throws/gm LESS than their opponents. In 04/05, they made 1.1 free throws/gm MORE than their opponents.

The Sonics became less of a three point shooting team(-.7) while increasing the points from the foul line(+ 3.6).

In 04-05, there were at least three teams that shot better than the Sonics from the 3pt territory.

PHX- 39.3 SEA- 36.5
MIA- 37.7 DAL- 36.4
SAC- 37.4 HOU- 36.4

You said "Why would Seattle do that?"

I'm sorry if I was not clear. Just to review, here is my premise:

"There are glaring holes on defense that should be addressed in order to contend."

The reason to execute the trades were to bring a more overall balance. I was hoping to spur some ideas, from everyone, in this area(more defense and balance vs. offense). Hence, I came up with some trades, not NECESSARILY ideal for both teams.

I think Radmanovic is overrated as player. In my previous post(s) I pointed out my reasons why. Trading him and Flip for Knight and Wallace was an idea to balance the team out. We gain defense and solid third guard. We lose a shooter and a pretender.

My other idea, again trying to intiate the idea of defense and balance, trading a 2/3 and a 4 for a center is not likely(but possible). Evans is wanted by many teams and could be wanted possibly by one of the teams I listed. In addition, I rate Wilkins potential higher than most here. Anyway, again I said a third team and draft pick may be necessary.

Do you think the Sonics are trying to build a contender? Do you think we need a decent center to contend? If so, who?
What are some options that could be available? We know Magloire is on the block. Also, Milwaukee and the LAC have many big men. That's what I went with, our pieces for their pieces.

In addition, going with Flip as our third guard would be a disaster - like not making the playoffs type of disaster! What teams would be willing to take the Sonics unsigned players for a decent third guard? If not Knight, then who? Please, don't even start with the Simmons or Conroy idea.

What's with the reach of Rashard Lewis becoming this low post threat? If anything, he became more of a 3 pt shooter last year.
In 02/03 he took 18.8% of his shots behind the 3 pt line. In 03/04, he took 31.2 % behind the 3 pt line. Last year, he took 37.7 % of his shots in the 3pt territory.

Kevin Ollie, may still have it, but probably not. Regardless, he's not worth the contract.

Philthy said...

Jack,

The Sonics took the champs to six games, and were three points from taking them to a seventh game, DESPITE missing two of their top three scorers, and having to give guys who are normally at the bottom of the order, first and second off the bench. We did it without a dominant center (James only really dominated against Sacramento). My point is, yes, I do think the Sonics are trying to build a contender, but you honestly think Gerald Wallace is the answer? Honestly, I don't see Wallace as being a whole lot better than Wilkins can be. He played for a crappy team. Athletic players tend to put up a few stats on crappy teams. It happens. He wouldn't put those numbers up in Seattle.

As far as centers go, I have news for you, this free agent market isn't like last season or the season before where top notch players were all over the place. This free agent market is weak by comparison, and I'm not sure the Sonics land their coveted center in this market. So, why throw too much money at one that probably won't amount to much more than Jerome James in the next five years? Centers are expensive in this league, and because of the washed market right now, I suspect they'll be more expensive than normal. It just doesn't make sense and you don't build a championship contender over night.

Radmanovic for Knight and Wallace doesn't make much sense, especially since Knight (correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I heard this) only has a year left on his contract. In essence, that would make the deal Radmanovic for Wallace, which is just a bad trade.

I don't care if Flip gets kicked to the curve. He's horrible, IMO.

J said...

A couple of things about Vladi. First, we could use him like Sam Perkins. There are a number of centers he can cover (Rasho, Ervin Johnson, anyone from Phx., etc.) and he creates an absolute matchup nightmare on the other end of the court.

Second, Vladi should start a media campaign saying he's committed to strong defense and get it in the refs heads that he's a tough defender. They'll give him more lattitude and maybe he'll read his own press and become more interested. That's his only defensive problem.

Jack W said...

Philthy-

Please try to understand what I'm saying. I'll try again to tell you my point.

-I'm not saying Sonics need a dominate center.

-Sonics current center is Swift, who is not ready to start. Potapenko isn't the solution either.

-I'm not saying the Sonics acquire a center through free agency. I was talking about acquiring through trade. Again, who would you acquire as the starting center either through trade or FA?

-Yes, you're right this is not the only year of free agency. But there are several teams that have equal or less cap room than the Sonics and they've done a lot more than Seattle. Those teams are trying to put together a contender.

-"...but you honestly think Gerald Wallace is the answer?"

NO! He's not the answer. AGAIN, I never implied nor did I say this is THE guy. Besides looking at his numbers, you should watch this guy play. Numbers aren't everything. AGAIN, back to the premise, the Sonics need more defense and balance. This guy provides good defense.

- "...you don't build a championship contender over night."
You're right you don't. Also, you don't build it around one- dimensional shooters. In reference to your statement, at what point did the Sonics start building a championship? HS is in year five of his five year plan. Wally Walker has been here for 11 years. Do the Sonics go for the championship in 2 or 3 years? The odds are statistically that Allen is on the downside of his career. They better hurry up before its too late.

- Wallace is a RFA and Knight(I thought he was an RFA, but it looks like an UFA)

I wasn't looking to debate my trade possibilities. The ideas were there to spark other ideas - your ideas! Do you have any well thought ideas? Lets hear them. Apparently you just want to argue the point of how G.Wallace isn't good because he played on a poor team. Whatever...why make the same point again?

Please provide a little more logic and facts with your arguements. In addition, try to be accurate when responding about to my comments. I don't think you would like it if I kept twisting your words around. I hope your sincere with your comments.

Please, lets see your suggestions. Maybe you think the Sonics should stay the same. I dunno... would rather see that then to keep kicking the same dead dog around.

Regardless, I gotta go. I'll probably be gone for a few days. Hopefully, there will be some good news by the time I come back.

Take care.

Philthy said...

Hey Jack,

This is my last reply on this topic, not because I'm angry or don't think your great points deserve more attention, but I'm not gonna be around a comp for a while. :P But feel free to answer anyway.

I realize your points. Here's mine:

Vlady is not a one dimensional player. Gerald Wallace is a nice talent, but he's no Vlady. We do need a center, but your not going to get the ones you listed for as cheap as you suggest, IMO. Maybe I'll be proven wrong about that. God, I hope so. We do need a defensive stopper, but if we trade Vlady for one, we better get someone better than Gerald Wallace. Yes, I've watched him play many times...even live a couple times. He's good. But I'd rather have Vlady.

That's one man's opinion, I suppose.

Great posts. Thanks for the conversation. Look forward to more in the future :).

JDWags said...

From my point of view this team needs, far more than anything else, a defender who can intimidate shots in the paint and rebound. Nick, Radman, Reggie, and Danny Fortson are all four tough guys who play hard but not one of them protects the hoop. Jerome James did at times but I was glad to see him leave. And Swift, after seeing his performance in the summer league, is not ready yet. Tyson Chandler would be ideal and Radman can go but it will just be too hard to get Chandler from Chicago. Lewis I would keep because he is such a great shooter. Out on the floor and he has a great touch midrange to close in as well. He needs to draw more fouls, like Ray, to expand his game.

Anonymous said...

I have read numerous plans and rumors regarding the Sonics and their players. Antoine Walker rumors, Dale Davis rumors, Jamaal Magloire rumors, etc.

I was looking over the Sonics roster and other team rosters and came up with my own little scenario.

1. Sign and trade Vlade Radmanovic and a 2nd round pick to Boston for C Mark Blount and PG Marcus Banks. Thoughts on this are as follows. Trading Vlade opens up minutes for Wilkins at back SF and gets rid of a player that doesn't want to be here. Acquiring Mark Blount would fill a need at starting center. Blount has excellent footwork and rebounding skills. While he is paid similar to Booth's contract, Blount would actually start and contribute. Blount is definately better than Jerome James and Vitaly. Marcus Banks is a tank of a PG and I think his size and bulk would be a nice changeup from Ridnour. He is a good passer and plays very good defense. It is rumored that Boston would like to move both of these players.

2. Sign and trade Ronald Murray to Denver for SG Demarr Johnson. It's true Murray has more offensive skills in terms of driving to the basket and finishing ability, but Johnson is more of a defensive player with adequate shooting skills that would be more of an asset than Murray. Johnson would spell Ray Allen and would bring hardnosed defensive pressure to the second unit. His shooting averages are pretty good and is more of a team player than Murray.

3. Re-sign Reggie Evans and Damien Wilkins. These are the Sonics hustle players and they need to be retained.

Under these ideas, the Sonics roster would look like this:

PG: Ridnour, Banks, Cleaves
SG: Allen, Johnson
SF: Lewis, Wilkins
PF: Collison, Evans, Fortson
C: Blount, Swift, Petro

Anonymous said...

the only part i dont like is that blount turns 30 in a couple months and has 5 years on the big contract. if it was 3 years i might say go for it but at 5 years sonic management won't.

Diezel said...

Why the heck would the Sonics not consider going out and trying to make that sign and trade for Joe Johnson??? Imagine him and Ray together is almost michael and Scotty esque. They guy(JJ) was a better three point shooter than Ray plays way better D and can play some point if need be. You need that guy on the perimeter who can lock up your one two or 3. Look at either Bruce Bowen or Tayshaun Prince as examples for those who say it would be too much money then Wally already has you fooled. The cavs signed Big z, Larry Hughes and have Bron's contract coming up and they still made offseason moves. Boris Diaw is all the Hawks had to give up I am scratching my head on this one.

Anonymous said...

diaw was only part of it. the suns mainly wanted the draft picks and trade exception. and they didnt want to take the bigger salary back of a better player. i think they got a lot actually under the circumstances.