Friday, July 29, 2005

DO THE MARINERS HAVE A PLAN?


Do the Mariners have any plan at all? It sure doesn’t feel that way. Here is what the plan seems to be. Bavasi and his boys are in the office and they are saying “Hey lets bring up all of these shortstops and then we will throw them around the diamond and see which one plays the best.” “Hey let’s bring up three different catchers and then we let each of them play and little but we will let a 42 year play the most.”
Any reasonable decent organization would know which one of these guys is the guy that they believe is going to be the shortstop or catcher of their club. Good organizations don’t have tryouts at the big league level. That is what the minor leagues are for, to evaluate and know your talent. That should know the guy who is going to play SS and who is the catcher.
They are talking about Betancourt that he reminds them of an Omar Vizquel.
If that is true then why is he possibly being moved to second base. Moreover, the idea that he can go play second for one night at Tacoma and then be ready to come to the big leagues and play second sounds like the biggest seat of your pants disorganization miss run garbage. It is laughable. Let me quote Hargrove directly “Jose is a good player and he's going to get better," Hargrove said. "It's just that sometimes the big-league level is not the best place to work on your game." So why then is a SS working himself into a 2B at the big league level Have a plan. Have an idea. Have an intention.

You can’t ask kids to come to the big adjust to a new high-pressure life and oh by the way would you please learn a new position while you are at it. This is absurd. Who is the SS of the future? Which guy do you think can catch? They should know, they should have decided It makes you wonder if there is any plan at all.

56 comments:

Biggie said...

PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS mICKEY mOUSE ORGANIZATION. I'VE STATED BEFORE I'M FROM SEATTLE AND ALL MY LIFE THEY SUCK!!!!! THEY WON 116 GAMES AND GOT BOUNCED IN THE PLAYOFF (THEY ALMOST LOST TO TEXAS) THEY SUCK, THEY ARE A BUNCH OF CLOWNS AND NOT ONE OF THEM SAVE ICHIRO, DESERVES THE MONEY THAT THEY MAKE!!!

Anonymous said...

I think what Hargrove was getting at was that you shouldn't work out your hitting problems at the big league level. Betencourt should have no problem with 2b.

Raul Duke said...

Locke I completely agree with you that we should question if the Mariners have a plan. I believe that the Mariners are the most poorly constructed team in MLB. I'm not saying they are the worst team only the most poorly constructed. They have the resources to me much better. I question their offseason moves including: hoping the same pitching staff would somehow improve, going into the season with 3 slap-hitting outfielders, and waiting too long to move players past their prime. I also question many of the in season moves that Locke points out. Bring up players at positions such as catcher, ss, and 2B only to rotate them quickly and not reward the players who have success. I also think they are looking way to shortsided on players suck as Bloomquest and Borders. These players are starters on poor teams or can fill a gap for a team in contention. The Mariners are not in contention and won't be anytime in the future so why play these two players? Like Locke says a compitent organization should be able to identify who the players should be long term without giving them tryouts at the major league level. The Mariners decision making is a joke right now and I bet Billy Bean is thankful everyday that they are in his division.

Anonymous said...

I don't think the M's are as sold on Morse as all of Seattle is. He was thought of as a limited prospect when the year started, and as the year progresses I think he is proving to be a prospect with limited power and limited range.

But he's got intangibles. He seems to be a leader. He's got good plate discipline. So I don't think the M's are ready to give up on him yet. They could send him down and let him develop, but that would be a public relations nightmare.

Bentancourt is going to be in the M's lineup next year. He's head over heals better defensively than Morse. And if neither has power, than there is no other reason to go with Mike..

I think the M's want to try them together though.. See if they have chemistry. You hear of organizations pairing young DP combo's together all the time. The pair can develop together. You can't send Morse down right now, so they brought Betancourt up. I think their view is that Bentancourt can make the switch to 2B easier than Morse, because he's more skilled defensively. I think they view this as a lost season. If they had their druthers, they'd pair these two together at AAA, but because Morse is already here, they're attempting to audition in Seattle..

Morse should not be a LF. You need power in the OF. Choo in Tacoma is the guy I think is going to end up there next year.

king said...

I also heard about this Adam Jones guy who playd short. A little clip from espn says

"The best all-around SS in Seattl'es bountiful crop. Some teams liked him as a pitcher because he threw 96. Estimated arrival time: 2007."

I hadn't heart about thig guy until the artivle but how many shortstops do we have? I am kind of starting the question "the plan."

On the whole 2nd base thing, I think after loosing Boone they need to find someone who can play solid 2nd base and right now I don't think they have someone. Being this many games back I don't think that you want to just tank the season but you need to continue looking at some players at the Major League level.

Biggie said...

The mariners S-U-C-K.

Anonymous said...

Locke, I do not wnat to see this but could the M's be showcasing either Lopez or Betancourt. I know it sounds stupid but in light of recent decisions to NOT play young guys, send down Chris Snelling, and continue to carry a catcher older than Noah, what else could explain their goofy thought process?

Tony

Biggie said...

Did you not read my last post?? Here this is the answer and reason for everything they do;
THEY S-U-C-K.

Anonymous said...

The M's need to see what they have, so they can see if they need to spend $$ in the offseason. They did it last year at 3B. They weren't impressed with Lopez. I think they are sold on Benancourt but not Morse.. They're trying them together to see what they do against ML pitching.. It's a 2 month tryout to decide if they need to spend millions in the winter.

Anonymous said...

So if Betancourt ends up sticking, what then happens to Lopez??? All I've been hearing for the past few years is how good Lopez is sposed to be, and now he's almost an aftertought. What the heck are the M's going to do with Morse, Lopez, Betancourt, Tuisasospo, and Jones??

The M's keep telling us that they are all so good. I'm fearing that this is going to be like when they kept telling us that Nagoette, Blackley, Pinero, Thornton, Anderson were all top of the rotation guys.

I think the M's have done a really good job of fooling us all into thinking that their minor league system is better than it is. Quite frankly, I think it blows. Compare it to Oakland. Look at all the guys they've turned out. Who the heck have the M's produced from their system since Arod and Griffey??? Unless they pick #1 they are screwed.

I think what hurt them the most was trading away Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe for freaking Heathcliff Slocumb. They've been petrified ever since to deal prospects. So they end up keeping them and they never develop.

I think the big question here is why the M's can't develop players. Is it because they don't get good players or is it that they do get good players and can't develop them. Either the scouting department or minor league coaching is to blame here, maybe both.

And why is it that just about every freaking top level prospect they have ends up missing a year or two due to a big injury??? What are they doing to these guys? Sheesh.

Anonymous said...

And what's with all the middle infielders and weak hitting outfielders???

Is it too much to ask to draft a couple of power hitting outfielders???

Anonymous said...

Bavasi sucks.. But the M's are missing to obvious things:

LH power pitcing
LH power bats


Their bullpen is good now, but we've got tons of young RH bullpen arms (Neogotte, Soriano, Mateo, Putz, Atchison). Madritsch is a 2 pitch pitcher with the makeup to pitch outta the pen. Sherrill is tough on lefties..

What about these trades?

Guadardo for Corey Patterson- Patterson's been Olivo'd to Iowa.. A LH power hitting CF with speed to cover Safeco. Who doesn't think the Coubs wanna closer.

Nelson & Olivo for Edwin Jackson and Dioner Navaro- Dodgers are still in the race without a C at the major league level.. The M's have ties to the Dodgers front office (Evans and Bavasi). Jackson is a LHP (power pitcher) who's been Olivo'd to AA. Navaro is another guy to try at C here.

Villone for John Lester- Boston LHP is a Puyallup native, and ready to pitch in the bigs.

Winn for Henn- I actually think this deal is close to being done..

Above all try to trade for Adam Dunn. A LH OF with a small contract. The Reds have been interested in Mateo before.. Package him with a Meche/Pinero to pry the slugger away from Cinn.

Anonymous said...

Why do the M's even have Snelling, Choo, and Strong???

They are weak hitting outfielders, and as long as Ichiro and Reed are out there they have no place on the big club.

WE NEED A POWER HITTING OUTFIELDER!!!

Anonymous said...

Reed sucks..

.270 2 HR 2 SB

What the heck is that??

Choo's actually got some pop in his bat.. He'll be ready in a year!

Anonymous said...

What about moving Ichiro to the 3 hole and letting Snelling lead off? Ichiro's supposed to have pop. Put him in a run producing spot in the order and lets see!!

Anonymous said...

I would trade for Dunn in a hearbeat. Only thing is I hear that the A's are after him. That would be so typical. Man do I hate the bleeping Oakland A's.

Why would LA trade Edwin Jackson, their top pitching prospect for Jeff Nelson, an old reliever whose a free agent at the end of the year, and Miguel Olivo, who is looking like he kinda sucks a lot? That would never happen. Why don't we trade Scott Spiezio for Dallas McPherson while we're at it.

Anonymous said...

What about

Moyer/Pinero for Ryan Howard..


Howard's old for a prospect, but he's still a LH Power bat.. Moyer's from Phil. They need LHP. Perhaps they'll overpay.. The only reason I'd give up Pinero is his salary next year.. Didn't they have a scout at the game yesterday?

Anonymous said...

Jackson's in AA now.. They've soured on him.. Hammerhead and others have passed him by.. Olivo is a prospect who has soured here.. Perhaps they have = value at this point. They've also been scouting Nelson

Anonymous said...

If Ichiro tries to hit hrs he'd end up hitting .270. That's a stupid idea. And while he does have more pop than he shows, he's not what the M's need. They need a Richie Sexson in the outfield. If you have that, then the other two guys can be weak hitting guys who hit for average. When you have 3 weak hitting of's you suck. Just think if they had another guy like Sexson right now. I know it's ridiculous and would never happen, but I'd like to get Manny Ramirez.

Anonymous said...

Reed might suck. If this is all he ever turns out to be, boy what a crap trade that was. Yuck. Hopefully though Reed can learn to hit for a better average, Olivo can remember how to hit, and Morse hasn't already used up his 15 minutes. I am kinda scared that none of these guys will ever really click for this team.

Anonymous said...

I wouldn't mind trading for Howard. But I fear trading for any unproven prospects at this point. No matter where they come from or how good they are sposed to be, the M's seem to muck up all the potentially good prospects they ever get their hands on.

Can we fire the entire minor league scouting, development, and coaching system and start over?

Anonymous said...

Ichiro's not gonna hit .270 no matter where he is.. But drop him in the order, take a slight dip in average for more power.. We're told he has power.. Step up Ichiro!! How many top of the order guys do we need in this system?

Sexson in LF? Trade a good glove 1B for a poor fielding LF? Good move!

Anonymous said...

Fire Bavasi!

Diezel said...

You can't be serios about Corey Patterson... U think there is a reason the Cubs desinganted him for assingment he's one of those can't miss products(5 Tool) who so far in his career has been a bust. and he's not a power hitter either. I wouldn't mind Adam Dunn but with him and Richie in the same lineup that could spell disaster. I agree we need power but are we trying to build another M's circa 96-2000 all power and no pitching. We have to look at trading our best commodity in Eddie the only problem is he has a no trade clause if u check out this website it gives good details about eddies potential to the bosox
://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/thebuzz/ the only problem is the M's are asking too much for him they want a Top prospect either Hanley Ramirez or Anibal Sanchez neither one the Sox want to really get rid of and either a SP or Power hitting DH/Outifielder. How about this trade Eddie, Scott Spezio, Joel for Anibal Sanchez, Manny and Kevin Millar I throw in Millar because he's unhappy in Boston and maybe someone might be dumb enough to take Spezio. Or if they don't want to let go of Sanchez maybe either Bronson Arroyo or Hanley Ramirez. Anybody on the blog interested in getting a few peeps together to go and check out Jeff Clement up in Everett??? There uni's by the way are hidious.

Anonymous said...

Choo has pop? I don't think so.

I'm getting tired of the M's signing weak hitting asian and australian players. This isn't cricket. Geez.

And they did it again. Just yesterday they signed some Taiwanese guy or something.

Just because an Asian guy owns the team doesn't mean we have to have an entire team of weak hitting asian players!!! Ichiro is rare. Stop trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice!!!

Biggie said...

THE MARINERS SUCK!!!!

Anonymous said...

Yes, those Aqua Sox jersies are awful. Yeesh.

Anonymous said...

David Locke has a huge head.

Biggie said...

DUDE YOU NEED TO KEEP YOUR RABBIT ASS MOUTH SHUT ABOUT NOT PLAYING ASIAN PLAYERS!!! ICHIRO IS THE GREATEST SINGLES HITTER EVER!!!! 267 FOOL 267.

Anonymous said...

Eddie is old, and we got two closers in the system..

Patterson has potential to be a 30-30 guy.. He's kinda built to play on this M's team.. A classic underachiever.. But that's where we are.. Acquiring guys like this..


The two guys the M's should look at from Boston are Lester and Soppach..

Anonymous said...

Choo can play.. See him in Tacoma.. The guy has 5 tool skills..

Anonymous said...

What is it with the dramatic loss in velocity of all M's SP's? Garcia (when he was here) used to throw 97mph. When he left he was at like 91mph. Meche used to throw 97. He also is lucky to hit 91 now.. Pinero used to throw 92-93. Is he toping out at 89-90 now?

Anonymous said...

On Gas's Manny fixation:

Convo's begin and end with Beltre.. He's kinda a bust. He's doing exactly what he did in LA minus last year, so there's no reason to believe he's really the Beltre of 2004. The Beltre salary would help compensate for Rameriez's $$. The Sox's would still have to send money this way though.

Diezel said...

I went to Boston.com and then clicked on the buzz section. as for Shoppach the Sox are trying to dump the guy read what they say about him on his own teams website. And John Lester according to Theo Epstein is Untouchable. According to sites I have looked at there(boston) top two prospects are Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez. And the guy who said Eddie is old I agree he's our best trade bait. But I am not sold on either Putz or Soriano as a closer. Shigi would be a option if he could ever get his game out of the toilet again. And the guy who complained about all these "ASIANS" I thought we were off race issues on this board, your an idiot.

Biggie said...

IDIOT!!!!

Anonymous said...

I think the guys we want are Lester and Soppach.. Rameriez and Sanchez are both RHP.. We've got 56 of them.

Diezel said...

dude check your facts before posting. Hanley Ramirez is a SS, not a pitcher.

Diezel said...

I forgot why would u want shoppach when we just signe Clement???

Anonymous said...

Sorry your right.. And we don't have enough SS's or RH hitters

Anonymous said...

we need a guy to sit in that spot for 3 years.. I think the M's have enough talent that if they handle this deadline right, they can win soon.. You don't sit and wait for Clement if you want to be successful right away

Biggie said...

But it doesn't matter because, THE MARINERS SUCK!!!!!!

Biggie said...

They Suck Huge Donkey Balls!!!!!!

Jack W said...

Blow this organization up!

Lincoln, Bavasi...gone! Bring in someone like Bob Whitsitt. He has experience running a pro basketball and football team. Maybe give him a try at baseball. Three's a charm!

What a disaster that would be! Can you imagine?

How about bringing in Lou as president? He could still be in Tampa for most of the year. A baseball guy running a baseball team. What an idea!

Biggie said...

I agree blow them up, because they BLOW. No wait sorry, they SUCK!!!!

Anonymous said...

ichiro is the exception to the rule. most asian position players don't pan out. since ichiro came there's been a ton of asian players signed by teams. and the only one to be any good was hideki matsui. the rest have been busts. the numbers don't lie.

Anonymous said...

I AGREE. ICHIRO IS FINE, BUT EVERY PLAYER FROM ASIA ISN'T GOING TO BE THE SAME.

Anonymous said...

Looks like Manny Ramirez might be heading to the Mets.

As for the Gasman's fascination with the M's trading for Manny. 1st, it was stupid because the M's would never take on salary like that. 2nd, I wanted to break my radio listening to the idiot gasman and the callers talk about trading Beltre or Ichiro for Manny. The Mets might get Manny for Mike Cameron!!! Manny's deal is so huge that it won't take much to get him. Taking on the contract is almost enough. Manny was placed on waivers last year!!!

Man the Gasman sure is ignorant to the stuff he's sposed to be an expert about. That's why I like Locke. He might be annoying, but the guy knows his stuff. Same with Mitch. By far the 2 most knowledgable guys on KJR. The rest just hoot and holler and make a lot of noise. The only crap Gas knows is NASCAR and horse racing, two things I could give a crap about.

Ableman2 said...

Personally I don't think we can guess at a plan for sure until after the trade deadline. Snelling was probably sent down so that Winn could be showcased more, plus Snelling is young- he needs to keep playing.

As far as SS/2b- Morse can hit, and as he gets more comfortable there has to be the belief he'll add power. The snag is the M's need to figure out whether he'll get over his defensive problems, specifically throwing.

As far as Bentacourt/Lopez, I don't think they expect Benta to progress this quickly. Didn't he hit better in AAA than AA? I think this skewed the question as to who will be where.

Additionally, we know Benta can field. Sticking him at 2nd allows the M's to figure out if he can hit.

Of course, this could all be posturing for the trade deadline...

Oh, I also disagree that good teams don't have AAA tryouts during the season- or at least I think that's missing the point. Good teams don't have the holes the M's do. They can afford to develop a couple of young players with MLB playing time- so essentially they are actually trying out AAA players, it just doesn't have the same air of desperation that a losing team has. Examples that come to mind include Cano, Mauer/Morneau (last year)...

P2thaSmitty said...

Black, if you don't like the M's, then why are you spending time here complaining about them?

As for the whole discussion... I think we've been trying out these SS's because it just so happens that we have four SS's in our top eight prospects in the minors. With such a focused grouping of talent, and a season that has basically been washed out and used for rebuilding, why not find out which of these guys has the right stuff to stick around? Morse came up out of desperation from injuries (Reese and Lopez were the original candidates for starts, both spending a lot of time on the DL), and just happened to do something right. No one else was at AAA and looking like they were worth the try. But Betancourt has the heir to SS before Morse got that call, and he still is. The reason Betancourt is playing 2B right now is he did that in Cuba, so he already knows the position; he can play both very well. But Lopez is the heir to 2B, once he matures more; he's not great right now, but he will be great in a year or two, and he wouldn't have been rushed along if Boone hadn't pooped out and had Boone not had his contract ending after this season... the FO would much prefer to wait on Lopez if they can, but they couldn't, in theory, until Morse really stepped up. My vote on all that? Convert Morse to 2B (it's easier to go SS to 2B, than vice versa), and use him there until Lopez has developed physically to where we want him to be, then trade Morse. One no-no: DO NOT MAKE MORSE A BENCH PLAYER! The minute you do that his trade value goes to sh*t... give a man the tag "bench player" and it takes years for him to lose it. Morse has trade value, and frankly we should trade him before this deadline to get max value out of him. As to his eventual power, don't forget he's young, and like Lopez he's still growing into his body. Since he's been called up this season he's started to pull the ball more, which is a sign that more power should eventually be on its way. For good reasons he's compared to AssRod (Alex Rodriguez).

As to the OF, having a power bat out there would be very nice, but so long as we have enough power bats in the lineup in general (which we don't at this point), then it doesn't matter what position they play. It's just a generalization that power bats should be in the outfield since that's where they tend to be anyway (guys are normally relegated to playing i the OF when they don't have the skills to play in the IF, but they have a bat that the team doesn't want to lose). That being said, Reed is not a flop. He's playing close to stellar defense, albeit he could be getting a better jump on the ball on occasion, but he's being doing great out there. His AVG will rise as he gets more ABs and gets more comfortable... anyone ever heard of sophomore slumps??? He hit for high AVG in the minors and he'll do it again, not to mention he has great plate discipline and good speed (4 SBs this season, but 87 in 322 games throughout the minors, which is about 40+ a season @ 162 games/yr). Give the kid time, and just relax.

As for trades, who knows who we're gonna get untul we get them... we can hypothesize all day and be completely off-base 95% of the time, and it doesn't do a ton of good. What we do know is that Felix and Campillo should be starting next year, Livingston should be available sometime next season, if not at the beginning, and as of right now Jeff Harris is making a strong argument to maybe get his chance at starting too, albeit he's 31years old (but then Moyer didn't hit his prime until he was in his 30's either). If we can deal Pineiro (something is either wrong with his shoulder or his head), and keep Meche, then we should be on the right road. Maybe bring back Moyer for some amount of time next season too? Who knows... Put Franklin in long relief, or trade him, but certainly not start him with the other options we'll have. Trade Guardado because he has an injured shoulder too, and has magically pitched very well through the injury, but that won't last forever (torn labrum was it?). People say Putz will close, but Sherrill is our closer of the future IMHO. We should really gut out our BP as much as possible, except for Mateo and maybe Putz, but the right offer for Putz should make him available too. But keep Mateo (he'd be a sub-2.00 ERA right now had he not started that one game... dumbest move we made all season). What else... well, with Mateo, Sherrill, Soriano, Nageotte (another closer candidate IMHO), Atchison, and maybe Sean Green or Jeffrey Harris (SP/RP), we should have a very solid and dominating pen next season, with a few other spots filled by...? Franklin in long relief maybe? Whoever, we can survive quite well there. Our relief pitching is our deepest area of our farm (we also have Fruto, Key, Jimenez, and Rall all waiting to move up from San Antonio).

Oh yes, and another couple arms to find places for: Madritsch and Thornton... we may just have to wait and find out.

Whatever we do, with the trade deadline approaching, we need to at least sign one verified power pitcher who shows all the signs of being able to be a #1 or #2 guy. After that we need a few more power prospects to feed into our club either in the OF or in the DH spot in a few years.

Oh yeah, and get used to the backstop shuffle until Clement is ready, because no one else is going to hold that job down until he gets up here. Olivo will be the first to have it, and have to lose it, unless he is traded. That being said, he probably won't hold onto it. He's got a dynamite arm, but if he can't eliminate passed balls and learn how to call a game better, his time up here is limited. Wiki is 31(?) and is a filler in the meantime, not a candidate to earn and keep the job. Don't be surprised to see Christianson get his shot at some time there too next year, if not this year.

Oy, ok, that's enough for now. Sorry to write so much!

Anonymous said...

Gasman is an idiot. Did you hear him ripping Ichiro for trying to sound intelligent? Go watch NASCAR ya big oaf.

Myk said...

If you could get Manny for Beltre why wouldn't you do it? I bet the Sox would split the difference in contracts and so the money would be equal and in return you get a far better player.

Im not sure people really realize how great Manny Ramirez is..look at his stats he has basically been the most consistent and best hitter in baseball (behind Bonds) for 8 or so years now. Why wouldn't you do this? Beltre has shown one year of greatness and Manny 8 or 9..even if Beltre really is a superstar he STILL won't put up better numbers than Manny

Ableman2 said...

I might, the three right handed bats in the middle of the lineup are a bit bad.

Besides, no way Boston does that.

Ableman2 said...

From ESPN:

"Dunn on the move?
Jul 30 - According to Jayson Stark, had the Manny Ramirez deal to the Mets gone through and the Red Sox had wound up with Mets outfield prospect Lastings Milledge, one baseball man who has been in touch with the Red Sox says Boston's dream scenario was to turn around and deal Milledge and pitching prospect Anibel Sanchez to the Reds for Adam Dunn."

That makes more sense

Mike Barer said...

Only Lou Piniella could make this franchise work and I think that he be only manager to ever leave here a success.

DOGNUTZZZZZZZZZ said...

Nowadays you need a Brown man for your coach so that he can relate to the majority of players on the team. Brown guys (blacks, hispanics, asians) don't take white coaches or managers seriously, they are dinosaurs from a time when the white superiority complex ran rampant in this nation. Now white america is realizing that not only are they not superior, but in most cases severly inferior to the brown man( or the true HUE-MAN).

Biggie said...

DAMN!!!!! LOL. He went there. That's too funny, true, but too funny. LOL