Wednesday, November 09, 2005

SONICS +/- REPORT FROM GRIZZLIES GAME

Sonics +/- Report from the Grizzlies Game
Player +/-
Allen 0
Cleaves -2
Fortson -4
Evans -4
Flip -6
Potapenko -6
Collison -7
Petro -11
Wilkins -19
Vlady -20
Rashard -21
Ridnour -23


SUMMARY: What jumps out is Allen's 0. That means when Allen was off the floor the Sonics were outscored by 26 points and when he was on the floor they were even. Ridnour's -23 is disturbing. The Sonics are asking him to be solid everynight and that is a huge next step in his career.

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

These plus / minus ratings are terrible generally but even worse than they appear for some because it is only the +/- earned in just a short amount of time on the floor. If you project this data over 48 minutes for each player to standardize them for comparison they look like this:

R Murray  -36.0
N Collison  -16.8
D Fortson  -17.5
M Cleaves  -5.1
D Wilkins  -45.6
V Radmanovic  -48.0
L Ridnour  -38.1
V Potapenko  -21.3
R Allen  0.0
R Evans  -10.7
J Petro  -58.7
R Lewis  -28.8

Anonymous said...

There is some minor rounding error but this is what it looks like when you lose by 25. In the raw +/ no one was above -23 but in fact on average the Sonics were -25, so some were -20ish and others were
-40 to -50ish so when you average them that is how you get to -25 in the boxscore.

Anonymous said...

Bottom line is these players need to understand their roles. Evans should never try to create his own offense and Lewis only getting 4 shots in the second half is horrible. Unfortunately a lot of this falls on the coach. He needs to put the hammer down and get his rotation set. Collison entering the game in the second quarter is inexcusable.

Diezel said...

Before the season Ric Sund and Wally cam out and said that this year we were going to be more of a Run and Gun team in the mold of Phoenix ok, the Suns lose Joe Johnson, Amare, and Q and there still scoring over a 100/per...we scored 69 points last night!!!!! that is totally unacceptable.

After the game Weiss tells KC that we are going to now more of a slow the tempo game!!! Luke cant play in a offense that is more slow it down, they got to run more or try. There was a rumor that the Sonics turned down a offer of Jamal Magloire for Vlade deal if this is the case Ric Sund should be fired on that move alone. Petro gets absoulutely no respect from the Refs 3 fouls in 2 minutes!!! we might as well start Danny then. Vitaly now is gonna start??? he looked like his feet were stuck in quicksand a couple of times.

Can we all agree that FLIP is not a point at the 5 minute mark of the 4th he put his head down tried to drive on 3 guys and Gasol batted his stuff out of bounds....FLIP/BRUNSON could be the worst backup combo in the NBA.

Damien needs more minutes, Vlade needs less, the guy couldn't get a board unless it falls right in his hands. We need to make a move to get another scorer..I have a trade proposal..

Larry Brown in NY is unhappy with Stephon Marbury how about we trade Luke and Vlade to NY for Stephon Marbury and Maurice Taylor..Steph could be that 3rd scorer with Ray and Rashard..he's just as bad on D as Luke so its a wash there, but he's more physical and will take it to the hoop, and doesn't shy away from contact.. Mo Taylor is just a solid bench guy who can come in a give u some offensive spark and can board, he would be more of a insurance policy if Nick continues playing bad or if Danny go's crazy. Think about it!!!!

Myk said...

I agree that players should understand their roles but I think the biggest problem is with a player like Evans where their role just doesn't fit anymore.

If the Sonics dont have enough firepower to be able to score like they did last year then they cant hvae a guy on the floor that absolutely cant score. All that does is put more pressure on Allen and Lewis and kills the team.

I know that Vlade hasn't been playing very well but don't you have to play him 30 minutes a game? He is the only other guy on the team besides the stars who can realistically score 20pts a game. Keeping him on the bench (for whatever reasons...) only makes it that much more difficult to win.

Myk said...

Diezel,

Good idea on the trade proposal but Marbury makes something like 14 million dollars so Ridnour and Vlade (who I am still pretty sure cannot be traded anyway) would not match up salary wise.

Also, Ridnour is most definately not a Brown kind of PG. I agree we could use a third scorer though, the Sonics are not spreading the floor and creating shots like last year.

NateRob1 said...

I don't know about you guys but I think that the Supes should think about trading Luke for Nate Robinson. Both are number 1's but Nate brings an energy and Moxie that Luke lacks most of the time. Luke is talented but he doesn't know how to create his own shots. Most of the time he is looking to pass the ball and stays out on the perimeter a lot. Nate at least forces the other guard to guard him because he can either pull up for the J or drive it inside without fear. That is the kind of point guard that the Sonics would be successful with because he causes defenses to not cheat on him and would leave our shooters open. Throw in Murray too while you're at it.

Diezel said...

Can we only dream about what if....in 2003 if we could have lost a few more games and gotten a little higher of a lottery pick or packaged the 12th and 14th pick can you imagine if we could have got Lebron?? Melo?? shoot I would have been happy with TJ Ford or Michael Sweetney..

I don't know if Luke and Nick started reading there press or not but this season they have not performed!!!

Vlade needs to shut the F up, he plays no D, cant get a rebound and thinks he deserves the same amount of money as Tayshaun Prince, what a joke!!!! Trade this fool while he still has some value!!!

Anonymous said...

Myk, I agree with you - Vlade needs to be on the court for 30 minutes at a minimum. He creates so many mismatches while spreading the floor. A majority of the success they had last year was with Vlade on the floor. I'm very suspicious about management and his playing time. For him to play less than 20 minutes in all 3 games is strange.

The loss of AD is really hurting this team. The Sonics decided not to spend some $$ and get a veteran back-up point - which in turn leaves a glarring hole.

Sonic EJ said...

Trade the whole freakin' team. I hate this roster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At this point I just hope they are bad enough to get a top 5 pick and make this all worth the time it is going to take.

I know it is early but the Sonics have shown no signs of life. What the hell is Bob Weiss doing??? I hope they make some deals for defensive players. Ship out Luke and Rashard. Maybe we can just cut Vlade all TO style. That would be great.

Myk said...

I really hope you dont think that it would be smart to trade Luke for Nate Robinson. For all of his defficiencies at least Luke has proven he is somewhat capabale to play in the league as a starter. Nate Robinson is a 10 minute per game energy player.

If Nate had played his College Ball at Purdue or anywhere but UW no one in Seattle would think he is nearly as good as his current rep.

Diezel said...

What has Vlade done to deserve 30+ minutes a game??? cried and moaned to the media?? play some defense and get a rebound.... the guy is averaging 4 boards a game at the and doesnt have ONE assist all year, are u kidding me. So besides jack up threes what can Vlade do for us, I would prefer to split the minutes at the 4 between Reggie, Nick, and Danny..Reggie's O isnt there but he is our leading rebounder at 8 a game.

Luke needs to lose minutes to Mateen they have pretty much the same assist/TO ratio actually Mateen is higher, and so far Mateen cant do no worse offensively, its not like these shots Luke is missing are contested there mostly all wide open jumpers!!!! and is he ever gonna drive and try to go to the line.

With the exception of when he was guarded by Bobby Jackson, Rashard doesn't go in the post at all, and if we continue to struggle from 3 point land 25 percent last night, we have no post game whatsoever so how are we gonna get easy baskets, especially the fact its hard to run when your taking the ball out of the basket.

Alot of people were saying that Luke is the next Steve Nash/John Stockton?? what was this based on?? a good decent regular season last year?? the guy got torched in the playoffs by both Mike Bibby and Tony Parker and AD had to come in to save the day now he's gone.

What other than being on the cheap can justify signing Ric Brunson/Mikki Moore, ane re-upping Flip, and Vlade???

Chris Duhon was a FA and is 4th in the league in assists and is keeping Mr. 4th quarter himself(Ben Gordon) on the bench and is playing awesome along with Hinrich,and we could have had him for the 5 mill mid-level!!!

How many games is Bob Weiss gonna make it?? I say Wally will have Sikma in there by the All star break.

Myk said...

Diezel,

- Regarding Vlade, all I am saying is that he is head and shoulders above every other player on the floor offensively so he needs to be out there. I am by no means justifying his actions so far but if he can spread the floor we can get more open looks...this is how they won last year and now they do not do it.

- The main reason people compared Luke to Stockton and Nash is because he is white and plays PG, simple as that. However, I would caution that Nash had a few rough years coming into the league and now look at hims, so maybe a little bit of patience is worth it. THe guy is a hard worker and so you can at least imagine that sooner or later his offensive game would improve. Also, remember everyone wanted to trade Gary when he first game to Seattle (would our teams been the same with Derek Harper at the point)?

- Surely you are not saying we should have paid Chris Duhon the full mid-level?? It has only been three games, lets save the outrageous claims until at least halfway through the season.

- Other than Shareef, who I think might have been a good fit here, but I also think didn't want to play here either. I would like to know one good FA that we didn't sign. Even look at ADs numbers in Washington, although it hurt to lose him he isn't doing so hot himself.

Anonymous said...

MYK says:

"I really hope you dont think that it would be smart to trade Luke for Nate Robinson. For all of his defficiencies at least Luke has proven he is somewhat capabale to play in the league as a starter. Nate Robinson is a 10 minute per game energy player.

If Nate had played his College Ball at Purdue or anywhere but UW no one in Seattle would think he is nearly as good as his current rep. "

Luke Ridnour would not be a starting point gaurd on any other team in the NBA, and certainly not on a playoff contending team. Luke plays for the sonics because he's from Blaine WA, PERIOD.

The sonics made a decision before the begining of last year to play Luke because they were coming off a terrible season played in an empty arena and they needed a marketing gimmick to get people to pay to see them play, and the white boy from washington fit the bill (I even saved some of the emails I recieved from the Sonics sales team promoting him as they tried to get me to renew my season tickets). They got lucky in that a lot of things meshed last year (Rashard stepped his game up, Allen stayed healthy all season, Fortson provided some muscle that helped get them off to the good start, etc.), AD played almost all the crunch time minutes and masked how poor Ridour really was. Ridour had a bad +/- most of the year and was not in the most productive lineup combinations (snuck in to the third best 3 man combo periodically throughout the season, but wasn't consistant).

Basically Luke can run a fast break, and thats it. I can't make an open shot, cant run a half court offense, can't play team or individual defense. He should have been benched in favor of AD during the playoffs (I also have an email from a local reporter who asked Nate if we would consider starting AD over luke during the playoffs - Nates answer was no because he didn't want to ruin Luke for the future.)

Bottom line is they got lucky last year. Wally is still wally and he still cant make a correct decison. they underestimated AD's impact, overrated Luke's abilities, and made a terrible mistake.

Trade for Nate Robinson - hell they do better than Luke by signing Will Conry as a free agent. Hell, they could do better than luke with Sue Bird running the point, at least she can shoot.

Anonymous said...

WE want Nate Robinson!!!!!!!

AK1984 said...

Kirk Hinrich = John Stockton
Luke Ridnour = Bobby Hurley

AK1984 said...

Diezel, your trade proposals make no sense. Plus, Vladimir Radmanovic cannot be traded elsewhere; the Supersonics are stuck with him throughout the rest of the season.

Myk said...

Anon:

- Are you joking? I would really like to see the number of fans who really care that Luke is from Blaine, WA. Is Luke better than an average PG? Nope...could he get better? Sure. I mean I could undertand that Luke starts because the Sonics don't want to look dumb for picking a guy at 14 and him not performing, but to insinuate that he plays because he brings fans in the house is about the funniest thing I have ever heard.

- So the Sonics made a big mistake by not signing AD? Im not sure I understand that logic. If you are going to rip on Luke for his poor play look up ADs numbers so far this year. They have been just as bad as Luke's and Luke costs what 1/4th as much? On top of that you can only project things getting worse for AD (age) whereas you could at least imagine that Luke improves (he is obviously a decent shooter, something just needs to be fixed in his game).

- Finally, isn't there a point that all the Wally bashing just becomes a pointless practice. Everyone in Seattle understands that he has made bad moves. Yet no one seems to give him credit for successfully getting out from under every one of those moves. The fact that we got Ray Allen for Gary Payton should be applauded everyday of the week by Sonic fans. Can anyone imagine how crappy this team would be if they would have just buckled to public pressure and given Gary a contact extension like he wanted?

Anonymous said...

MYK:
- "Are you joking? I would really like to see the number of fans who really care that Luke is from Blaine, WA."

Well, simply count how many #8 jerseys you see in the crowd next time you're at the key, I think you'll be surprised. What surprises me most is how many people I see wearing those jerseys that aren't teenage girls. Also you obviously were not part of the hard core sales pitch last year and this year. I have probably a dozen emails from this past off season where I went back and forth with their sales staff who were telling me at the end of last year 'we don't have ray signed, we don't have nate signed, but hey come and see luke.' I'd post some of them here but unfortunatly I cant get into my private email account on my work computer - they're actually quite funny 'the next steve nash', 'the local kid thats going to be an allstar' etc.

MYK:
- So the Sonics made a big mistake by not signing AD? Im not sure I understand that logic. If you are going to rip on Luke for his poor play look up ADs numbers so far this year.

Irrelevant point, different system, different players, differenet coach, and different role. I'd rather look at what he did last year than what he's doing in washington. I'll trust my eyes over stats. Plus what stat covers his peremiter defense? His late game poise? (how 'bout sonics w/l?). We all saw what he brought to the table last year.

- Finally, isn't there a point that all the Wally bashing just becomes a pointless practice. Everyone in Seattle understands that he has made bad moves. Yet no one seems to give him credit for successfully getting out from under every one of those moves.

You're right, I don't give him any credit for getting out from under those moves, i give rick sund all the credit in the world for fixing wally's mistakes, especially dumping baker off on Boston. So I guess if i had to give hin credit for anything it would be giving his GM roll to rick. Luke just has Wally's finger prints all over it.

Luke plays because the front office wants him to, not because of his basket ball abilities. His shot is terrible, his defense is worse. He cant drive the lane because he's not strong enough (what did he do this off season, besides jam against the darkness? - ever heard of a weight room?). He has one ability, to run a fast break. Freddie Jones is the reason he's even in the NBA, all he had to do at Oregon was throw it at the rim and let FJ go get it.

Myk said...

Anon,

- We can agree to disagree but I think that my logic behind starting him because they don't want to look foolish for wasting a first round pick makes alot more sense than playing him because he is from Blaine.

- OK so we will take Luke to task for his poor start to the season, and ignore that he played at least decent (for a second year PG) last year. However, the fact that AD is playing horribly the first three games this year has nothing to do with how he would play here. This logic makes no sense. Is the team hurting because we do not have a player that provided us what AD provided us last year? ABSOLUTELY. Would this years version of AD be capabable of providing the same spark as last years version? APPARENTLY NOT. He got old, he has leg problems and he isn't performing at all in Washington...and sadly it will only get worse from here. I am sure by year three when he was a 9th or 10th man everyone would be bitching about not being able to sign FA because his bloated contract was taking up too much of the salary cap.

- I am not sure I understand how you can give credit to Rick but give blame to Wally when they work hand in hand? So all of the bad moves were made without Sund knowing and all the good moves were made without Wally knowing? What sense does that make?

Biggie said...

MYK, YOU'RE AN IDIOT ANONYMOUS MAKES POINT AFTER POINT AND YOU COME BACK WITH THE DUMBEST SHIT POSSIBLE, ARE YOU WALLY WALKER. jUST SHUT UP PLEASE.

p.s. RIDNOUR SUCKS, CAN WE STILL GET KEMP, AND WE WANR NATE ROBINSON NOW!!!!!! bAUB WEISSTPHAL IS AN ASS