Tuesday, November 15, 2005

Sonics +/- at this point

Brunson +3 65.2 32.6 +32.6
Petro -7 97.8 101.5 -3.7
Fortson -12 95.6 103.7 -8.1
Moore -12 113.8 156.4 -42.7
Cleaves -17 81.3 98.3 -17.1
Evans -22 91.7 102.5 -10.8
Allen -25 99.2 104.4 -5.2
Collison -32 97.0 107.3 -10.3
Potapenko-39 82.2 108.2 -26.0
Radmanovic-45 86.6 106.1 -19.5
Ridnour -54 91.9 104.7 -12.8
Lewis -55 95.1 108.4 -13.2
Wilkins -68 82.9 118.8 -35.9
Murray -75 91.3 124.3 -33.1

The things that jump out at me are ..
1) The terrible defensive numbers with Wilkins in the game
2) Last year the offense was great with Vlady
3) Ray Allen has to be on the floor
4) The defense is noticably better with Petro in the game
5) The second best offensive rating is with Nick on the floor

Any thoughts?


Sonic EJ said...

Brunson's +/- is a fluke.

Petro's is amazing considering how bad this team has played as a whole.

Reggie's and Nick's are very similar.

I think the Sonics should rotate Petro, Nick and Reggie at the 4 and 5 with Pot filling in for whoever is in foul trouble.

Vlade should be the back up 3 for 10-15 minutes a night until he is traded and then Damien should take his minutes.

I like Damien playing the back up 2 and Cleaves should split time with Luke at the point. Luke should be traded soon.

Flip, Danny and Vlade will hate this but who cares.

mikebo said...


Myk said...

- So what are people's reasoning on why Vlade has played so horribly this season? I know he is probably unhappy with his contract but you would think he also realizes he needs to play well to get paid. It is strange to see a player fall off so dramatically...

- Yeah lets fire wally walker...oh wait he is a part owner of the team. Don't think you can fire someone who owns the team...

Sonic EJ said...

I wish I could fire you myk. lol

Diezel said...

mikebo...great website, we need a blog on that site so we can all vent on the dummy Wally, I think we were in trouble with Robert the minute Nate called him Robert Smith and the fact that Sund had only seen him on tape and not in person, he should be fired on that premise alone.

JohnS said...

I think this team is like a kid with an authoritarian father that goes to college and totally goes out of control. They have been so used to the external passion and discipline via Nate that they aren't used to having to come up with that passion and pride within themselves.

I'd like to think that the Washington game was the equivalent of "hitting bottom" and that the Toronto game was the start of learning how to play hard and compete hard as a team without Nate's strong hand driving them constantly.

I think the good news is that if the fire comes from the players themselves and not just from the coach, I think it is more lasting and can get you through more tough times than if you simply are being steered by someone else.

I saw a pissed off and fired up Rashard completely taking over against Toronto - the guy was unstoppable. You could hear him yell on TV when Nick hit that layup in overtime - how many times have we seen that in the last 7 years?

Raptors played the best game of their lives and we were able to close it out on the road in overtime without Ray. Tonight against NJ is a critical test against a good team. I'm psyched to see how they respond.

Anonymous said...

Actually according to your numbers Nick is only 4th best on offense and Petro is only a slight improvement over Fortson on defense.

Anonymous said...

And to flip it, Collison is 5th on defensive rating of 7 big men he competes with for time and it only better than the two least used ones.

Anonymous said...

So far this year Nick is giving up 6 more points per 48 minutes to power forwards but is doing better against centers. But the folks at 82games have yet to prove that they accurately record actual position played in the game and not height so maybe it is a wash.

Anonymous said...

Nick was +5 compared to Reggie on/off last year but this year he is virtually the same and now the move is made. I agree with it but the +/-stats provide no basis for it and that is my point. They are overused and not that discerning or fair.

Myk said...


It is Apple Cup weekend we need at least one fourm to discuss the game. Plus the Huskies finally win a game and we don't have a fourm to talk about that either...

Diezel said...

This is how much of a idiot combo we have in Sund and Wally World here is a list of all the players we could of had before Robert Smith I mean Swift...

Josh Smith
Delonte West
Al Jefferson
Tony Allen
Chris Duhon
David Harrison
Sasha Vujacic
J.R. Smith
Jameer Nelson
Trevor Ariza
Sebastian Telfair
Kevin Martin

We had the 12th pick and this list is 12 players who are all better than Robert right now, and they all could be contributing now instead of riding the pine.

JohnS said...

You roll the dice with seven foot shot blockers. Maybe they lost out with Swift (the kid is still a sophomore in college BTW) but may have won out with Petro. The key is that if either of those guys pan out they have a defensive anchor for the next 10-15 years.

The bottom line is that you can't get top notch big men (other than Shaq) in a trade or via free agency. At least outside of Miami or LA. We don't have weather or location going for us - anyone we get is going to be via the draft.

mak1024 said...

You are absolutely right, sonics70. It's not a question of Swift being better than those players right now. Of course, everybody in the organization knew that he is not going to be good for the first couple of years. He is a project...

Diezel said...

Project??? I dont see it..when ur coming off a season in which u miss the playoffs and have the 12th pick and can improve your team and U pick A project?? this pick in my mind was the begginning of they end as far as Nate was concerned.

You cant have a guy going into his last year of his contract knowiin if u dont win ur gettin canned, and the orginzation goes out and drafts a project they never seen in person just on tape??? wtf is that about??

Sonic EJ said...

Project??? Isn't that what the second round of the draft is for???

Myk said...

Holy crap...two people on this message board that actually get it. Finally, people who understand why you draft Swift and you don't draft Tony Allen and Sebastian Telfair...

Maybe sooner or later the rest of the idiots around here will realize that you should always draft size unless you have an absolute need (or there is a All-Star available). It is kind of like how NFL teams always draft QBs and OLinemen

Myk said...

Diezel & EJ,

So say we draft Josh Smith, Chris Duhon, Sebastian Telfair etc. with the 12th pick do you think that they would lead us to a championship or something? Nope...

A big guy who has talent, he could lead us to a championship...that is why you draft the big guy

Sonic EJ said...

Call me when Swift leads any team to a title. The dude didn't even win a title in HS.


Myk said...


The point of my comment is that a big guy could help you win a title. A so so Guard won't do that for you so why even waste the pick? Unless you have an obvious hole in your line-up (like when they drafted Luke..) or the guy is going to be a sure superstart (LeBron, Wade etc.) you should always draft a big man and hope one of them turns into gold.

Look at Damien Wilkins, the Sonics were able to get a guy who some think will be a decent role player as a FA after the draft, show me a big man that has ever not been drafted and became even a decent role player.

Sonic EJ said...

What big guy have the Sonics ever drafted that would make you think it is worth doing???

Drafting big men is the way to go if you have a good pick.

The Sonics have not had a top five since Gary Payton.

He seemed to work out for the Sonics. Why not try again?

Sonic EJ said...

Now that I have had time to think about it...how many big men can you name that were even drafted out of the top 10???? I'm talking good big men that help win titles.

I bet you can't name one.

Biggie said...


Thanks for the research dude, that's exactly the type of list that I was looking for I knew it would be bad but that shit is just atrocious. We could have had Josh Smith. Fire those two idiots (sund and Walker) and send Myk with them in a cheerleader outfit. The 3 Morons.

Myk said...

Hmm lets see I am pretty sure that Gary Payton was considered a superstar out of college and should be one in the pros. That seems to cover one of my rules.

Also, Gary is a great point about a draft pick. He struggled his first two years and tons of people wanted to trade him for Derek Harper...funny what happens when you give a guy more than a year or two to prove themselves.

Finally, since all of you are just flat out stupid lets list of the number of good big men who have been drafted after the 10th pick. First I am just going to look at the rebounding leaders from last year:

Ben Wallace (never drafted...)
Troy Muprhy (14th pick)
Zach Randolph (19th pick)
Brad Miller (never drafted...)
Udonis Haslam (never drafted...)

Those guys are just from the top 20 (all over 9RPG), I could have added Reggie there too but I just think he is a fluke. Also if you go top 25 you get: PJ Brown, Carlos Boozer, Jeff Foster and Jamal Magloire.

Lets look at blocks per game:

Andre Kierelinko (24th pick)
Theo Ratliff (18th pick)
Ben Wallace (not drafted)
Ilglauskus (20th pick)
Jermaine O'Neal (17th pick)
Samuel Dalembert (26th pick)
Brendan Haywood (20th pick)
Rasho Nesterovic (17th pick)

Of course my research could have been more in-depth, but I do have a job to do. It is things like these that make me laugh when one of you has the balls to call me a moron. There are only a few morons on this board and I am not one of them.

Biggie said...

Has the balls? Fool, like I said before I will knock your punk ass out. You've been hired to do a job?? I guess Wally's balls will be nice and shiny this year huh? Isn't there a blog for total jackasses like yourself where you can go and post dumb stuff to your silly hearts content? MORON!!!

Myk said...

Ahh this is exactly my point...whenever presented with real evidence on how you are wrong you are not smart enough to make any counter arguments you just go back to name calling...that really shows how high your intellect is.

Biggie said...

OK, whatever you say.

Biggie said...

anyways my only point was that we could have gotten alot better pick than robert swift with the 12th selection and Diezel proved my point with that list. Thanks though.

Biggie said...


Sonic EJ said...

Ben Wallace is all you got??? I said name be a big guy that was drafted after the tenth pick, who has helped his team win a title. Get it together MORON!!!

Just in case you still don't get it, Swift is not Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace is the only Ben Wallace we will ever see. If the Sonics are going to use their draft picks looking for the next great big man they better be at least top 10 picks.

BTW I must be trippin but did you try and compair Luke and Gary? Like as in, Luke could be as good as Gary Payton??? This is Seattle bro. Guys like Black will kill you if you say sh!! like that man. Come on myk.

Biggie said...

LOL!!! Ej, I love it man. LOL

Myk, your done dude, hang it up alright.

Myk said...


Ummm besides Shaq and Duncan name another big man in the top 10 that has led their team to a championship? What a dumb comment to make when there has only been four teams who have won a championship in 11 years.

When did I compare Luke to Gary? All I have said about Gary is that after two years everyone was willing to run him out of town and look how that worked out.

Seriously do you guys watch and understand basketball?

Myk said...


Also, for that matter then please give me a list of small players that have led their team to a championship that were lower than a number 10 pick? Basically you are saying that you would rather either be the Spurs/Pistons/Lakers or the Clippers/Hawks/Magic

Wow I know how much fun I would have fun watching year after year of losing...

Sonic EJ said...

Give it up myk. It is over.

Biggie said...


Where would you like us to scatter your ashes??? Wally's yard??